101
1 A Correct.
2 Q Then there is a press article,
3 "Pentagon to Probe Allegation Tripp Lied for
4 Security Clearance," that's number 62,
5 correct?
6 A Correct.
7 Q No. 63 is a duplicate of the same
8 article?
9 A Yeah, it's a write through, so it
10 probably adding something after the first
11 article when it came through.
12 Q No. 64 through 66 is an article
13 written by Tucker Carlson, "Linda Tripp's
14 Pentagon Papers"; is that correct?
15 A Correct.
16 Q At the top it says CC. Who is
17 that? Bill Darby? (703) 697-3501?
18 A It's Bill Darley. He's one of our
19 staff officers.
20 Q Did you CC him on this article?
21 A That does not say CC. That says
22 lieutenant colonel.
102
1 Q Is this your handwriting?
2 A No.
3 Q Whose handwriting is it?
4 A I have no idea.
5 Q What is his name? Darley?
6 A Darley, lieutenant colonel.
7 Q Did he give you a copy of this
8 article?
9 A I don't know who gave me the copy
10 of article.
11 Q Whose phone number is this,
12 (703) 697-3501?
13 A It's a Pentagon phone number. I'm
14 not sure whose it is.
15 Q The next document 67, what is that?
16 A It's something taken offer the
17 Internet. I'm not sure where it came from.
18 Q Did you obtain it?
19 A Did I personally do something to
20 get this? No, this is probably -- this
21 probably was just distributed to me in my
22 in-box.
103
1 Q Who distributed it to you in your
2 in-box?
3 A I have no idea.
4 Q Who in the ordinary course of your
5 activities distributes things in your in-box?
6 A Many people.
7 Q The document 68 -- well, who are
8 those many people?
9 A Secretaries, military assistants,
10 actions officers. Could be anybody in any of
11 those groups.
12 Q Document 68, 69 and 70 is an
13 article written by Jane Mayer, "Portrait of a
14 Whistleblower," in the New Yorker, correct?
15 A Correct.
16 Q Document number 70 -- 71 or 72?
17 A I think it's --
18 Q 71?
19 A It looks like 71.
20 Q "False statements: The Flubber of
21 all Laws," by Paul Glastris?
22 A Uh-huh.
104
1 Q Document number 72 is a letter from
2 Gerald Solomon to Secretary Cohen dated
3 March 17th, 1998. 73 is the same letter,
4 correct? Duplicate?
5 A Correct.
6 Q Document 74 and 75 is the letter
7 from Semmes, Bowen & Semmes; is that correct?
8 A That is correct.
9 Q These are all the documents that
10 you produced today?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Can you tell me where you searched
13 for these documents that were produced and
14 which were not produced but listed on the
15 privilege log specifically?
16 A I searched all of my personal
17 records, all my electronic records, all my
18 files. Well, those are all the things that
19 were -- that I had.
20 Q Where is your office located where
21 you conducted the search?
22 A I conducted the search at my office
105
1 at the American Forces Information Service,
2 which is in Old Town, Alexandria.
3 Q That was not the office that you
4 occupied when the information was released
5 concerning Ms. Tripp, was it?
6 A No, that's correct.
7 Q Did anyone search that office where
8 you were when the information was released?
9 A Yes. First of all, when I moved to
10 my new office, I took almost all of my files
11 with me. So the files didn't exist up at the
12 Pentagon. There was one set of files in one
13 drawer that we searched that did not contain
14 any documents.
15 Q Where was the office that you
16 occupied before you moved?
17 A In the Pentagon.
18 Q What the number of that office?
19 A 2E800.
20 Q What records did you take as
21 opposed to which you left behind when you
22 moved?
106
1 A I took all records that may be
2 useful to me in my new job plus I took all of
3 the Linda Tripp and Monica Lewinsky documents
4 with me that I had in my possession at the
5 old office. I took those all to the new
6 office.
7 MR. KLAYMAN: Can you read that
8 back?
9 (The reporter read the record as
10 requested.)
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q How did you define those documents
13 which would be useful to you that you took?
14 A I took the -- any document that
15 pertained to the American Forces Information
16 Service, where I was going. These were all
17 records that I had accumulated. So I took
18 anything that I thought would be helpful to
19 me that pertained to the new job and because
20 these were my -- the records that I
21 maintained on Linda Tripp and Monica
22 Lewinsky, I took those with me because I knew
107
1 that that was going to be continuing, that I
2 would have continuing need.
3 Q Did you make copies of the Monica
4 Lewinsky/Linda Tripp records to leave behind
5 in your old office before you moved over to
6 your new office?
7 A The -- no, not specifically.
8 Q What do you mean not specifically?
9 Either you did or you didn't.
10 A Well, there are some documents in
11 here that are news articles that are my
12 personal files, my personal electronic files.
13 Those things I didn't.
14 I would say that there's -- that I
15 have no files that have not been -- there's
16 nothing here and no files that haven't
17 already been released to the independent
18 counsel, so there are copies of everything
19 here in other places.
20 Q That's not my question. My
21 question was whether or not you took
22 everything over with you. The answer is no,
108
1 correct?
2 A I'm sorry. Say it again.
3 Q Let me back up. The documents that
4 you took with you concerning the Monica
5 Lewinsky/Linda Tripp matter, as you have
6 defined it, did you leave copies of those
7 documents behind in your former office?
8 A Let me clarify. The documents that
9 I took were my copies of all documents that
10 had -- that existed any way. So the copies
11 that I took in my opinion were -- not in my
12 opinion -- they were extra copies. They were
13 my copies that I made from documents that
14 exist still in the office.
15 Q In the former office?
16 A In the former office.
17 Q How did you define the documents
18 that you took concerning the Monica
19 Lewinsky/Linda Tripp matter? What were those
20 documents?
21 A They were the types of documents
22 you see here.
109
1 Q Well, we didn't get all of the
2 documents and I'm trying to understand --
3 A But you can see from here,
4 Mr. Klayman, that -- the types of articles --
5 everything that I did submit and that tells
6 you, I think, the types of information. I
7 don't know how to get more specific than
8 that.
9 Q Are there Monica Lewinsky/Linda
10 Tripp documents that you have in your
11 possession which aren't listed on the
12 privilege log that you've submitted today?
13 A I need to ask a question here.
14 MR. KLAYMAN: That's a clear
15 question. I object to your consulting on it.
16 This has nothing to do with attorney/client
17 privilege.
18 I'm seeing whether documents are in
19 existence which he didn't produce today
20 concerning Monica Lewinsky and Linda Tripp.
21 It's a simple question.
22 MR. QUINLIVAN: The witness has the
110
1 right to counsel with counsel.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: Object. Certify it.
3 (Witness conferred with counsel)
4 MR. KLAYMAN: Please respond.
5 (Witness conferred with counsel)
6 MR. KLAYMAN: Same objection.
7 THE WITNESS: Every document that I
8 had pertaining to Monica Lewinsky and Linda
9 Tripp, every document that I had I turned
10 over to the general counsel.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q Do you know whether every document
13 was ultimately produced to Judicial Watch?
14 A I'm sorry?
15 Q Do you know whether all of those
16 documents were produced to Judicial Watch
17 today?
18 A There are documents that I turned
19 over that are not here.
20 Q What types of documents are they?
21 MR. QUINLIVAN: I'm going to object
22 to that question because it calls for -- the
111
1 scope of Mr. Bernath's testimony is limited
2 under Rule 26 both by the judge's order and
3 by the limitation that was set forth by the
4 letter submitted by the Office of General
5 Counsel yesterday pursuant to the (2)(e)
6 regulations.
7 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm entitled to
8 identify by general subject matter,
9 generically, what those documents are to see
10 whether everything has been produced. I'm
11 not asking for the content.
12 MR. QUINLIVAN: Okay.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm just asking for
14 the general subject matter.
15 MR. QUINLIVAN: Okay.
16 THE WITNESS: Some of the documents
17 pertained to Linda Tripp's flexaplace
18 assignment all the agreements and all the
19 records pertaining to that. I can't -- I
20 frankly, cannot remember the others, but the
21 largest portion of documents that's not here,
22 and I haven't done a page-by-page comparison
112
1 of what I've turned in versus what's here,
2 but the largest portion of it pertains to
3 flexaplace.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q What other portion of it is
6 involved?
7 A I can't remember anything else that
8 was submitted.
9 Q Other than the documents that were
10 in your former office and your second office,
11 do you know whether any other documents
12 inside the Department of Defense have been
13 produced today?
14 A I do not know.
15 Q Have you asked?
16 A No.
17 Q Do you know whether or not your
18 subpoena requires the production of documents
19 located in other offices?
20 A As I read the subpoena, it was
21 addressed to me and it asked for records in
22 my possession.
113
1 Q How do you define what's in your
2 possession?
3 A In my possession means in my
4 physical possession or in my -- in offices
5 that I have access to.
6 Q Just you personally?
7 A Yes.
8 Q At the time that you left your
9 former office what was your title?
10 A At the time I left the title was
11 Principal Deputy Assistant, Secretary of
12 Defense for Public Affairs.
13 Q As such, what were your duties and
14 responsibilities?
15 A I had day-to-day responsibility for
16 the operations of the Office of the Assistant
17 Secretary of Defense for Public Affairs. My
18 primary duties had to do with military media
19 relations especially during combat
20 operations, making sure that media had access
21 to combat operations.
22 I was responsible for all of the
114
1 administrative personnel jobs related to
2 public affairs, the American Forces
3 Information Services, which I now am the
4 director of, reported to me. The directorate
5 for Freedom of Information and Security
6 Review reported to me. I was responsible for
7 a program with the Partnership for Peace
8 Nations working with them to help them
9 develop their own military media
10 relationships in these emerging democracies.
11 Q Who was the head of that office?
12 A I was. Those are my major duties.
13 Q Tell me anybody else who reported
14 to you when you were principal deputy,
15 Secretary of Defense?
16 A Reporting directly to me were the
17 directorate for management. That's the
18 personnel and supplies and -- excuse me.
19 Q Anyone else?
20 A The director for information
21 security review, the director for plans, the
22 director for American Forces Information
115
1 Service.
2 Q Anyone else?
3 A I have to physically go through the
4 road map in my mind here.
5 No. Well, and then in the front
6 office my military system assistant and
7 staff.
8 Q Who was your military assistant and
9 staff?
10 A It was Lieutenant Commander Jamie
11 Grabiel and my secretary was Mark Huffman.
12 Q You didn't check any of their
13 records, did you, in making production to
14 Judicial Watch, these people that you have
15 just identified as reporting to you or being
16 under your control?
17 A No, I did not.
18 Q You didn't ask them to check their
19 records, did you?
20 A I did not.
21 Q When did you first meet Linda
22 Tripp?
116
1 A In August of 1994.
2 Q How did you come to meet her?
3 A She was assigned to my office.
4 Q Do you know how she came to be
5 assigned to your office?
6 A She was a Schedule C political
7 appointee who was assigned to my office
8 through the normal White House/Pentagon
9 personnel system.
10 Q In her being assigned to your
11 office, did you have any contact with the
12 White House?
13 A No. I had -- I need to correct
14 that. I had no contact with the White House.
15 The White House maintains a White House
16 liaison office in the Pentagon and I was in
17 contact with that White House liaison
18 portion.
19 Q Who ran that office at the time?
20 A Mr. Charlie Duncan.
21 Q Did there come a point in time that
22 you were advised of the reason why Ms. Tripp
117
1 was being assigned to you?
2 A No.
3 MR. QUINLIVAN: I'm going to object
4 to this line of questioning because it goes
5 beyond the scope of Judge Lamberth's order as
6 to what is appropriate for this witness and,
7 in addition, goes beyond what has been
8 directed by the letter of yesterday.
9 If counsel wishes to make a proffer
10 as to the possible relevancy of that
11 information to these matters --
12 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm entitled to get
13 into background, number one. That's a normal
14 part of taking a deposition. I'm entitled to
15 get back into issues concerning the
16 relationship between Ms. Tripp professionally
17 and the witness, Mr. Bernath, in terms of
18 intent and motive and all kinds of those
19 other issues with regard to why the
20 information was ultimately released.
21 I prefer not to make all these
22 proffers because doing that pollutes
118
1 testimony and this is an inappropriate
2 objection. I'm entitled to get into a
3 latitude of issues that deal with Ms. Tripp's
4 employment and how it came to pass that her
5 Privacy Act information was released. If
6 you're going to maintain that objection,
7 you're on very, very thin ice. I don't think
8 you're on any ice.
9 MR. QUINLIVAN: I'm going to note
10 the objection for the record. I will allow
11 the witness to respond to this question, but
12 I will inform counsel that we will be
13 maintaining this objection.
14 We will allow you some latitude,
15 but the Department of Defense has -- the
16 judge has clearly set a parameter as to what
17 is appropriate testimony in this and,
18 moreover, you have not submitted a (2)(e)
19 request, which is required under the
20 Department of Defense regulations. The
21 Department of Defense has construed the
22 judge's order as waiving the (2)(e) request
119
1 to the extent that this information is
2 required.
3 He has been instructed not to
4 respond to questions beyond that. I'll allow
5 the witness to respond.
6 MR. KLAYMAN: I hope that you won't
7 obstruct this deposition because if this is
8 the way you're going to proceed, this
9 deposition will take a very, very long time
10 and we will go to the court, as necessary, in
11 every one of these objections if you're going
12 to obstruct the testimony.
13 The judge's order is clear on its
14 face. The judge's order does discuss the
15 latitude of discovery and how evidence is
16 relevant or may lead to relevant evidence and
17 for you to take out one passage of the order
18 and just simply say he can't go beyond that
19 is an abuse of the reading of the judge's
20 order, but we'll take it up with the judge if
21 that's what you want us to do. However, I'm
22 putting you on notice that this deposition is
120
1 going to take a very long time. But I'm
2 patient.
3 MR. QUINLIVAN: Counsel, I want --
4 MR. KLAYMAN: If you want to make
5 these kinds of objections, we'll go in front
6 of the court.
7 MR. QUINLIVAN: Counsel, I want to
8 object to several of your characterizations
9 that we have mischaracterized the judge's
10 order. The judge's order stands for itself.
11 MR. KLAYMAN: It does, and that's
12 why, if necessary, we'll go in front of the
13 court.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q Do you know why Ms. Tripp was
16 reassigned to your office from any source?
17 A No.
18 Q Did you ever discuss that with --
19 is his name Mr. Charles?
20 A Duncan.
21 Q Mr. Duncan, Charles Duncan.
22 A No.
121
1 Q Have you ever had any contact with
2 anyone at the White House since Ms. Tripp was
3 assigned to your office?
4 A Can you be more specific?
5 Q No.
6 A Yes, I have contact with people at
7 the White House.
8 Q Who have you had contact with since
9 August of 1994?
10 A Is your question in relationship to
11 Ms. Tripp have I had contact?
12 Q Generally.
13 A In the course of my duties as a
14 public affairs officer I am in touch with
15 public affairs officers at the White House.
16 Q Who are they since August of 1994?
17 A I do not remember going back
18 to '94. You know, today I have -- or in
19 my -- recently I've had contact with Mike
20 McCurry never about Ms. Tripp. I've had
21 contact with Colonel P.J. Crowley, who is --
22 works at the NSC in the public affairs
122
1 office. And just various staffers in the
2 White House public affairs office. I can't
3 remember the names.
4 Q Have you ever had contact with
5 Sidney Blumenthal?
6 A No.
7 Q Have you ever had contact with Rahm
8 Emanuel?
9 A No.
10 Q Ann Lewis?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Did you ever have contact with Ann
13 Lewis concerning Linda Tripp?
14 A No.
15 Q Did you ever have contact with Paul
16 Begala?
17 A No.
18 Q Did you ever have contact with
19 Stacey Parker?
20 A No.
21 Q Did you ever have contact with Tom
22 Janenda?
123
1 A No.
2 Q Glen Weiner?
3 A No.
4 Q Anybody in the White House research
5 office?
6 A Not that I'm aware of.
7 Q Tell me everybody at the White
8 House that you had contact with concerning
9 Ms. Tripp.
10 A Nobody.
11 Q Who was your immediate supervisor
12 when you were Principal Deputy, Secretary of
13 Defense?
14 A Mr. Kenneth Bacon.
15 Q Do you know whether Mr. Bacon has
16 had any contact with people in the White
17 House concerning Ms. Tripp?
18 A I'm not aware ever any.
19 Q Do you know whether anyone at the
20 Pentagon has had any contact with the anyone
21 at the White House concerning Ms. Tripp?
22 A I have no personal knowledge of
124
1 that.
2 Q Knowledge from whatever source.
3 This is just discovery.
4 A I mean I have no direct knowledge
5 that anybody did.
6 Q Let's have your indirect knowledge.
7 Any knowledge at all? This is discovery.
8 This is not a trial. The judge is going to
9 be able to make determinations as to whether
10 your testimony is admissible. But I want to
11 know from whatever source you have it.
12 A I have never talked to anybody at
13 the White House, nobody has ever told me they
14 talked to somebody at the White House. My
15 contact was the White House liaison. Who the
16 White House liaison talked to I don't know.
17 Q But are you aware from any source,
18 whether it's direct, whether it's talking to
19 somebody else, where it's reading a newspaper
20 article, whether it's reading an E-mail or a
21 memorandum or notes of anyone, that anyone
22 has had communication from the Department of
125
1 Defense with the White House about Linda
2 Tripp.
3 A All I can tell you is what I know
4 and I do not know of any communications. I
5 can't tell you what somebody else did.
6 Q Are you aware of any information
7 that others had communications, any other
8 type of source material that others
9 communicated with the White House about
10 Ms. Tripp, from any source?
11 A I have no knowledge of that.
12 Q Are you aware of the circumstances
13 of Ms. Tripp's appointment from the White
14 House to the Pentagon from any source?
15 A I'm only aware of statements that
16 Ms. Tripp has alluded to. She is the only
17 source of information that I have about why
18 she's there.
19 Q Did she make those statements to
20 you?
21 A Yes.
22 Q What did she tell you?
126
1 A She said that she was involved in
2 the Vince Foster affair and that the White
3 House -- I can't remember the words that she
4 used, but that the White House wanted her in
5 this job or wanted her -- made sure she had a
6 good job at the Pentagon, something like
7 that.
8 Q Did she say something to the effect
9 that the White House wanted to get rid of
10 her?
11 A She certainly could have made that
12 statement. I mean I don't remember the exact
13 words, but that would be --
14 Q When did she make that statement?
15 A The first day she arrived.
16 Q In August of '94?
17 A (Nodding)
18 Q Did she tell you how she was
19 involved in the Vince Foster affair?
20 A No. She only made statements like,
21 if you only knew; and I didn't want to know.
22 Q What level position did she take at
127
1 the Pentagon when she was transferred from
2 the White House?
3 A She was assigned as a GS-15.
4 Q You are aware that her reassignment
5 resulted in a significant increase in her
6 salary?
7 A I am.
8 Q How did you become aware of that?
9 A Through the personnel office in the
10 White House liaison.
11 Q Who was that?
12 A Again, it was Charlie Duncan and I
13 don't remember who was in the White House --
14 who was in our personnel office at the time.
15 Q Did you learn why she was getting a
16 salary raise?
17 A No.
18 Q Did you ever ask?
19 A No.
20 Q GS-15, that's a pretty high level
21 of employment, is it not?
22 A Yes, it is.
128
1 Q What were Ms. Tripp's duties and
2 responsibilities?
3 A When she was originally assigned to
4 the Pentagon, her responsibilities were to
5 help arrange radio and T.V. appearances for
6 the Secretary and the Deputy Secretary of
7 Defense.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: I couldn't hear
9 anything because they were talking in the
10 other room. Can you play that back?
11 (The reporter read the record as
12 requested.)
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q So she had frequent contact with
15 the Secretary of Defense and Deputy Secretary
16 of Defense?
17 A No. She worked through a Deputy
18 Assistant Secretary of Defense, Willie
19 Blacklow, and through -- at that time the
20 head of the office was Kathleen DeLaski.
21 They had contact with the deputy and the
22 Secretary of Defense. Linda Tripp had little
129
1 or no access.
2 Q As her supervisor, did you receive
3 any cautionary instructions as to what you
4 could use Ms. Tripp for as opposed to what
5 you couldn't use her for?
6 A First let me correct I was not her
7 direct supervisor. Willie Blacklow was her
8 direct supervisor. Actually it was a step
9 below that. It was -- Lynn Reddy was her
10 direct supervisor and Willie Blacklow was her
11 supervisor.
12 Q But you were her ultimate
13 supervisor?
14 A Ultimately everybody in public
15 affairs is responsible to me in some way, but
16 I did not write her ratings.
17 Q What I'm asking you is, did you
18 receive any instructions from any source that
19 you should use Ms. Tripp for certain things
20 and not for others?
21 A The only instructions that I was
22 given were that she should -- she was going
130
1 to be assigned as a public affairs specialist
2 and I should assign public affairs specialist
3 type duties to her.
4 Q Who gave you those instructions?
5 A That came from Charlie Duncan also.
6 Q Have you ever heard of a Brenda
7 Costello?
8 A That does not ring any bells.
9 Q Did there come a point in time when
10 you met a Monica Lewinsky?
11 A Yes.
12 Q When was that?
13 MR. QUINLIVAN: I'm going to
14 object. I'm you going to now object on this
15 and ask for a proffer as to how this
16 testimony is possibly relevant to the matters
17 which the judge has determined are relevant
18 for this witness.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, obviously Linda
20 Tripp's history at the Pentagon, in terms of
21 the release of inform, was related to Monica
22 Lewinsky. Obviously they worked together.
131
1 Obviously he kept files on the so-called
2 Tripp/Monica Lewinsky matter. So I'm
3 entitled to get some basic background
4 information to lay the foundation for further
5 questions.
6 MR. QUINLIVAN: We don't agree that
7 that is the scope of what the judge's ordered
8 and he has received a letter directing him to
9 limit himself to the matters which were set
10 forth regarding the release of information
11 regarding Linda Tripp.
12 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you saying I
13 can't get basic background information as to
14 when he met Monica Lewinsky? This is absurd.
15 MR. QUINLIVAN: We'll give you some
16 leeway into the basic background information.
17 MR. KLAYMAN: I also want a proffer
18 from you. Are you here representing the
19 White House? What is your interest in
20 blocking testimony with regard to Monica
21 Lewinsky?
22 MR. QUINLIVAN: Counsel, I'm not
132
1 being deposed here.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: I question the
3 authority to come in here and to block
4 testimony on something which clearly is
5 foundational in terms of my questions.
6 It seems to me that what you're
7 doing is you're taking a very protective
8 position of this matter and I want to know
9 whether you're representing the White House.
10 MR. QUINLIVAN: I am representing
11 Mr. Bernath in his official capacity.
12 MR. KLAYMAN: That's it?
13 MR. QUINLIVAN: I've answered your
14 question.
15 MR. KLAYMAN: Is that all your
16 representing here today?
17 MR. QUINLIVAN: I'm not going to
18 go -- I've answered your question.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify this area of
20 testimony.
21 THE WITNESS: Can I ask for a
22 two-minute break?
133
1 MR. KLAYMAN: Yeah.
2 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: We're going off
3 video record at 12:28 p.m.
4 (Recess)
5 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: We're back on
6 video record at 12:34.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q Were you the one that interviewed
9 Linda Tripp for the job?
10 A There was no interview.
11 Q So her job in your area was
12 presented to you as a fait accompli?
13 A She was assigned to public affairs
14 as a fait accompli, yes.
15 Q Do you know who, if anyone,
16 recommended her for the position?
17 A No.
18 Q That's unusual, isn't it? You
19 usually interview people that work in your
20 section?
21 A It's unusual but it's not unique.
22 In other words, there are some Schedule C
134
1 people over the administrations who come in
2 as priority placements and their assignments
3 are directed.
4 Q But you hadn't seen it that
5 frequently in your years at the Defense
6 Department, had you?
7 A It's not the norm, but I've seen it
8 before.
9 Q When did you first meet Monica
10 Lewinsky?
11 A I'm trying to remember the date.
12 We interviewed her -- it seems like it was
13 the end of '95. Does that sound right? I
14 can't -- I don't remember the date. But we
15 did interview her for the assignment.
16 Q How did it come to pass that you
17 interviewed her? Was there someone at the
18 White House that contacted your office?
19 A The secretary before the special
20 assistant before had left or wanted to leave,
21 so we -- because it's a political assignment,
22 we contacted the White House liaison office,
135
1 the one in the Pentagon. We also went out to
2 other sources in the Pentagon to see if other
3 people were interested.
4 We got a -- Monica's name came from
5 the White House. We had other people who
6 were interested from in the building. We
7 interviewed all of them.
8 Q Were you told to hire Monica
9 Lewinsky by anyone?
10 A No, no.
11 Q Did you interview her yourself?
12 A Yes.
13 Q What qualifications did she have
14 that caused you to ultimately hire her?
15 MR. QUINLIVAN: I'm going to object
16 to this question because this really is going
17 beyond the scope of what Judge Lamberth has
18 said is relevant in this case.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: Not at all. It deals
20 with motive. It deals with intent. It deals
21 with the communications with the White House.
22 It deals with a relationship which ultimately
136
1 led to him violating the Privacy Act.
2 MR. QUINLIVAN: Monica Lewinsky's
3 qualifications for her job have nothing to do
4 with the possible release of information
5 regarding Linda Tripp.
6 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not going to give
7 him testimony. Are you instructing him to
8 not to answer?
9 MR. QUINLIVAN: Yes.
10 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q Was Monica Lewinsky hired for the
13 job ultimately?
14 A Yes, she was.
15 Q What was she hired to do?
16 A She was hired to be the
17 confidential assistant to Mr. Bacon.
18 Q What is the job description of a
19 confidential assistant?
20 A It's largely secretarial duties.
21 She also travels with Mr. Bacon on official
22 travel when he's with the Secretary of
137
1 Defense.
2 Q Did Mr. Bacon interview her as
3 well?
4 A Yes, he did.
5 Q Did you both interview her at the
6 same time?
7 A No.
8 Q What were Ms. Lewinsky's
9 qualifications for that job?
10 MR. QUINLIVAN: That's the same
11 objection that I had earlier.
12 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q Was were you told to hire
15 Ms. Lewinsky by anyone, you or Mr. Bacon?
16 A No.
17 Q What was her GS level?
18 A GS-9.
19 Q Did there come a point in time when
20 you or anybody in the office became aware of
21 allegations that Ms. Lewinsky was involved
22 with the President of the United States?
138
1 MR. QUINLIVAN: Counsel, there has
2 to be some kind of relation between --
3 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm laying a
4 foundation. I'm also laying a time frame
5 here.
6 MR. QUINLIVAN: Let me read from --
7 MR. KLAYMAN: It's hardly a unique
8 fact. I just want to see at what point in
9 time he became aware of that. As you know,
10 the Privacy Act -- and I would ask the
11 witness to leave the room if you, please.
12 MS. WEISMANN: No, we're not going
13 to carry on any discussions outside the
14 presence of this witness.
15 MR. KLAYMAN: Ms. Weismann, you
16 don't get to dictate what goes on here. I
17 would like to discuss with you things with
18 you that deal with making a proffer as to
19 what I'm trying to get into and I would not
20 want the witness to hear that because it
21 contains testimony.
22 MS. WEISMANN: We're not --
139
1 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. Besides,
2 you're not counsel here.
3 MS. WEISMANN: Yes, I am. I'm one
4 of the two counsel here.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, Mr. Quinlivan
6 is the one that's handling this matter. I
7 ask that you not interject, please. The
8 court has already issued instructions on
9 that.
10 Mr. Quinlivan, what's your position
11 on that? I'd like to give you a little bit
12 of a proffer here. Hopefully you will be
13 reasonable. I, frankly, don't think you will
14 be, but I'd like to make that effort.
15 MR. QUINLIVAN: No, we're not going
16 to agree that the witness not be present.
17 This is his deposition.
18 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q Do you have any understanding,
21 Mr. Bernath, as to when this whole
22 controversy with Monica Lewinsky arose?
140
1 A Yes.
2 Q When was that?
3 A It was on -- I think it was
4 January 20th. I think that the news of this
5 broke on the Drudge Report on January 21st,
6 if I'm not mistaken. On January 20th I got a
7 call from Michael Issikoff, of the -- of
8 Newsweek, asking some questions about
9 Monica's employment. I asked him why he was
10 asking. He said well, he was just working on
11 some background stuff.
12 Q Go on.
13 A The questions were when did she --
14 when was she hired, what pay grade. Very few
15 questions. Just background information like
16 that.
17 I hung up. I had no other
18 knowledge. On January 21st the news broke
19 and you know the rest. That was the first
20 time.
21 Q Is the communication with
22 Mr. Issikoff listed on the calendars that
141
1 you've produced her today as part of
2 Exhibit 4?
3 A I doubt it.
4 Q It is the ordinary course to list
5 telephone communications on your calendar, is
6 it not?
7 A No, not all of them. What you see
8 there is something that I do as I can get to
9 it. So I don't record everything. If I did,
10 I wouldn't be able to do anything else. So I
11 don't record everything. So that is not a
12 complete record of every phone call or every
13 meeting that I've ever had.
14 Q Are you saying that you did not
15 list the call of Mr. Issikoff on your
16 calendars or any other documentation?
17 A That's correct.
18 Q Are there calendar pages that you
19 did not produce which may, in fact, list the
20 call from Mr. Issikoff?
21 A No, what I'm saying is I don't
22 list -- I cannot physically keep a record of
142
1 every phone call that I get, every meeting
2 that I make, every person I talk to. This is
3 a representative example or sample of what I
4 do.
5 Let me clarify that. You're
6 getting a complete record there. What you
7 see is a complete record. What doesn't exist
8 are the things that I don't record and I --
9 and there's no -- I don't know in advance
10 what things are going to be so important that
11 I should have recorded.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q You learned of the controversy from
14 the Drudge Report. Do you review that on a
15 daily basis?
16 A No.
17 Q How did you learn it was broken on
18 the Drudge Report?
19 A Well, because it came out on the
20 wires that the Drudge Report had broken it.
21 Q At the time that that came out on
22 the wires did you discuss that report with
143
1 anyone, the Monica Lewinsky matter?
2 A I'm sure that we had meetings about
3 it and I don't remember all of them, but this
4 obviously was major news that we had to work
5 with.
6 Q What meetings did you have about
7 it?
8 MR. QUINLIVAN: Let me now object.
9 Let me read from Judge Lamberth's order where
10 the judge said that the court does not
11 believe that permitting discovery into this
12 limited area grants plaintiffs a roving
13 commission to investigate any alleged scandal
14 that might befall the White House or any
15 other component of the executive branch.
16 Counsel is far afield now from the
17 matters on which the court has limited
18 discovery in this matter and on which the
19 witness has been directed by the Department
20 of Defense that he may testify to.
21 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not far afield.
22 I'm just simply laying a foundation in
144
1 reference to the point of time -- I want to
2 know if there were meetings and then I'm
3 going to ask some follow-up questions which
4 zero in on the Tripp matter.
5 I don't understand this. You see,
6 to me, if I was sitting just here watching as
7 an innocent observer, the impression I would
8 get is that what you're doing is defending
9 the White House. Not this gentlemen and not
10 the Department of Defense. I can't even ask
11 foundational questions. This is absurd.
12 Can I ask my foundational question?
13 MR. QUINLIVAN: Counsel, I will
14 give you a little more leeway, but I am
15 noting that you are far afield from what the
16 judge --
17 MR. KLAYMAN: Far afield to
18 identify whether meetings were held about the
19 Monica Lewinsky controversy that Linda Tripp
20 prominently played a role in? That's far
21 afield?
22 MR. QUINLIVAN: That is far afield
145
1 from what the judge has ordered limited
2 discovery into, which is in the release of
3 the information.
4 MR. KLAYMAN: We will be taking up
5 with the judge these issues. I make it a
6 point not to use the court's name in vein.
7 We'll let the judge make that decision. For
8 the time being I just want a foundational
9 question responded to; when did these meeting
10 take place.
11 MR. QUINLIVAN: Our objection is
12 noted for the record. We'll allow you a
13 little more leeway on this.
14 THE WITNESS: The meetings that we
15 had were limited in scope. First of all,
16 within days, and it might have even been on
17 the first day that this was released, we had
18 received word from Ms. Tripp's lawyer that
19 she would not be able to come to work and
20 that we needed to put in place some sort of a
21 flexaplace agreement.
22 So a lot of the -- what I was
146
1 involved in was the flexaplace assignment.
2 As I said, personnel was -- that came under
3 me.
4 There were other questions -- you
5 know, just you saw in here the type of media
6 queries that we prepare so that when the
7 media asks. So meetings were probably --
8 were certainly held, and I was not party to
9 all meetings, about how to handle this with
10 the media, how to respond to questions, what
11 types of questions should be dealt with and
12 who should deal with them.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q You were aware at the time of these
15 meetings of Linda Tripp's role in the
16 controversy, correct, reported role?
17 A Oh, yes, from the media. Not from
18 anybody else.
19 Q Right. What did you understand her
20 role to be in the controversy at that time?
21 A She was a -- she worked with the
22 independent counsel and -- in his
147
1 investigation and that that she had taped
2 Monica Lewinsky and that those tapes were
3 part of the case.
4 Q In fact, those tapes were a very
5 important part of the case. That was your
6 understanding at the time, was it not?
7 MR. QUINLIVAN: Counsel, that was
8 not the witness' testimony.
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q Was that your impression at the
11 time?
12 A No, I had no idea that --
13 MR. KLAYMAN: Thank you for giving
14 him the answer. This is completely
15 sanctionable.
16 Certify it.
17 MR. QUINLIVAN: Counsel, what is
18 inappropriate is your mischaracterization of
19 the witness' testimony.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: You gave him the
21 answer, Quinlivan, and I'm asking you not to
22 do that. We now have several pleadings
148
1 pending on this.
2 Have you reviewed our pleadings
3 asking for sanctions against the Justice
4 Department?
5 MR. QUINLIVAN: Counsel, I'm not
6 going to respond to this kind of colloquy.
7 MR. KLAYMAN: We'll take it up in
8 court.
9 Certify it.
10 I'm asking you not to interrupt my
11 testimony. That's all I'm interested in
12 right now.
13 MR. QUINLIVAN: I'm asking you not
14 to mischaracterize the witness' testimony or
15 to put words into the witness' mouth.
16 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm entitled to ask a
17 leading question. Are you saying I'm not?
18 MR. QUINLIVAN: Counsel, I've
19 already stated what our objection was.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q You considered Tripp's involvement
22 in this controversy at the time to have been
149
1 important, did you not?
2 A In the early days of this what we
3 knew was what we read in the newspaper and I
4 don't recall back then what -- certainly the
5 news -- the first days of the news focused on
6 Linda Tripp and Monica Lewinsky equally.
7 Q Both of whom worked for you?
8 A Worked in our offices, yes.
9 Q Were both of their supervisors,
10 correct?
11 A Actually I was neither of their
12 supervisors.
13 Q Ultimate supervisors?
14 A Let's define supervisor. I did not
15 rate them, I was not in their chain of
16 command, but because of my position,
17 everybody -- I have influence over everybody.
18 So I just want to make it clear because when
19 you say supervisor, that's a precise term.
20 So I'm not a -- I was not their supervisor.
21 I certainly had influence.
22 Q You were aware at the time that
150
1 there was criticism concerning Ms. Tripp for
2 having taped Monica Lewinsky, correct?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Were aware that there were reports
5 that the taping of Monica Lewinsky was
6 illegal?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Were aware that the White House was
9 not very pleased with the fact that Monica
10 Lewinsky was taped by Linda Tripp, correct?
11 A No. I have no knowledge of that.
12 Q You are not aware of criticism from
13 the White House that Linda Tripp had
14 illegally taped Monica Lewinsky?
15 A I don't recall that. I mean -- you
16 know, I read news articles, but I never
17 received anything from the White House on
18 anything to do with any of this, so I don't
19 think that falls in your logic flow yet.
20 Q But you learned of that from
21 reading news reports, did you not, that the
22 White House was very upset that Monica