151 1 Lewinsky had been taped by Linda Tripp? 2 A Actually I don't recall that degree 3 of specificity from the White House. 4 Q What do you recall from the White 5 House at the time? 6 A I recall that the White House 7 objected to the accusation about an affair 8 with Monica Lewinsky. That's what I 9 remember. 10 Q The accusation made by Ms. Tripp 11 among others? 12 A You asked me what I recall and 13 that's what I recall. 14 Q Yes. You are aware that Ms. Tripp 15 is the one who came forward and said that 16 Monica Lewinsky had told her that she had an 17 affair with the President, correct? 18 A Yes. 19 Q You're aware that the White House 20 reacted negatively to that, correct? 21 A Again, I'm aware that the White 22 House denied the accusation about Monica 152 1 Lewinsky having an affair with the President. 2 If you call that negative, then that's 3 negative. 4 Q You viewed it as negative, did you 5 not? 6 A I didn't view it. I have to tell 7 you that that was not my concern. That was 8 not my concern. 9 Q Do you think from reports that the 10 White House was happy about this whole thing? 11 A I think that that was not my 12 concern, what the White House felt one way or 13 the other. I was doing other things. 14 Q I'm not asking for your concern. 15 I'm asking for your own understanding of the 16 White House's position with regard to what 17 Linda Tripp had done. 18 A I believe I've answered the 19 question. I don't know how else to answer 20 the question. 21 Q They were not happy with it, were 22 they? 153 1 A I don't know what they were. I 2 don't work at the White House. 3 Q Based on what you understood from 4 the media? 5 MR. QUINLIVAN: Counsel, this line 6 of inquiry has been asked and answered. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Please respond. 9 A I believe I did. 10 Q Please respond. 11 A What I was aware of was that the 12 White House objected to the characterization 13 of the charge of sexual conduct with Monica 14 Lewinsky. That's what I remember from the 15 articles. 16 Q Were aware that the White House had 17 criticized the conduct of Linda Tripp, 18 correct? 19 A I am not aware of that. 20 Q You didn't read that in the media? 21 A I don't recall reading that in the 22 media. 154 1 Q You had no in interest in finding 2 out what the media was saying at that time? 3 A I was working a specific part of 4 this and you asked me a question. I answered 5 the question. 6 Q You were the press officer of the 7 Pentagon at the time, correct? 8 A No, that's not even correct. The 9 press officer -- the people who deal with the 10 media most of the time are Mr. Bacon and the 11 director of defense information. My title 12 was not press officer. 13 Q But as part of your duties and 14 responsibilities, you were to keep informed 15 as to what was occurring with regard to your 16 employees, correct? 17 A Uh-huh, yes. 18 Q You were in charge with 19 establishing public affairs policy and 20 doctrine for the Department of Defense, were 21 you not? 22 A Yes. 155 1 Q Part of your responsibilities were 2 the day-to-day operation and management of 3 the office of the Assistant Secretary of 4 Defense, Public Affairs, correct? 5 A That's correct. 6 Q I will show you what I will ask the 7 court reporter to mark as Exhibit 5. 8 (Bernath Deposition Exhibit 9 No. 5 was marked for 10 identification.) 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Showing you Exhibit 5, what is 13 Exhibit 5, Mr. Bernath? 14 A That's my bio, my biography. 15 Q Is this an official Department of 16 Defense biography? 17 A Yes, it is. 18 Q This biography was prepared in and 19 around what period of time? 20 A A year or two ago. 21 Q This biography accurately describes 22 your duties and responsibilities as Principal 156 1 Deputy, Secretary of Defense, Public Affairs, 2 correct? 3 A It provides a broad summary of my 4 duties. 5 Q Is there anything that's inaccurate 6 in here? 7 A No, there's nothing that is 8 inaccurate. 9 Q Is there anything that you did in 10 that position that is not listed in 11 Exhibit 5? 12 A Certainly. 13 Q What is that? 14 A Let me answer it generally. My 15 working day at the Pentagon was 6 o'clock in 16 the morning until 8:30 at night. I did a lot 17 of things that you cannot characterize in a 18 one-page summary. I don't think anybody's 19 biography accurately depicts every specific 20 detail of their jobs every day of the year. 21 So this is an accurate summary of my job. 22 Q As part of your duties and 157 1 responsibilities, you sometimes came to deal 2 with Privacy Act information, is that not the 3 case? 4 A Yes, and Freedom of Information, 5 yes. 6 Q In fact, you were trained on how to 7 deal with Privacy Act and Freedom of 8 Information Act information, were you not? 9 A Many years ago I was at a course, 10 yeah. 11 Q That course was provided by the 12 Department of Defense? 13 A Yes. 14 Q What was the name of the course? 15 A I don't remember. 16 Q Where did the course take place? 17 A I would imagine at the Pentagon. I 18 don't specifically remember it, but I'm sure 19 I did. 20 Q It was part of the general training 21 procedures at the Pentagon, correct? 22 A I believe so. 158 1 Q They explained to you what Privacy 2 Act material was? 3 A I'm sure they did. 4 Q They explained to you what should 5 and should not be released to the public 6 under the Privacy Act, correct? 7 A They went over types, but also -- 8 but also indicated that there is a not 9 absolute privacy. In other words, there are 10 some judgment calls. 11 Q But they did tell you what should 12 not be released under the Privacy Act? 13 A In general, types of information 14 that should not be, yes. 15 Q What did they tell you was the 16 types of information that could be released? 17 A Information about terms of 18 employment are, generally, releasable. I 19 don't remember in details the course. 20 Q What do you mean by terms of 21 employment? 22 A When a person arrived, their rank, 159 1 pay are, generally, releasable. 2 Q Just basic information, correct? 3 A Correct. 4 Q But they didn't tell you that you 5 could release information from forms that 6 were filed out by an employee in confidence, 7 did they? 8 A I don't remember what they said 9 about -- I don't know that we ever got to 10 specific forms. 11 Q They gave you some written 12 materials, did they not, to review for that 13 course, they meaning the Department of 14 Defense? 15 A If they did, I don't have them. I 16 don't know. I can't remember. 17 Q You don't have them currently? 18 A Yeah, I don't remember having them. 19 Q So you may have had them, but you 20 just don't remember? 21 A That's correct. 22 Q In the course of your duties and 160 1 responsibilities in your various jobs at the 2 Department of Defense have you ever dealt 3 with Privacy Act materials up to the point of 4 the Linda Tripp controversy? 5 A In the course of my 6 responsibilities I have been asked questions 7 about people and I have released information. 8 I am not -- things have not come across my 9 desk as a matter of specifically this is a 10 privacy matter or not. So I haven't dealt 11 with it specifically in that way. 12 Q On what occasions were you asked 13 questions about matters that was concerning 14 the Privacy Act up to Linda Tripp? 15 A Is your question what types of 16 information have I released that may have 17 privacy implications? 18 Q My question is, what information 19 were you asked about up to the point of Linda 20 Tripp that may have privacy implications? 21 A Well, we dealt with many issues 22 pertaining to then Secretary of Defense Aspin 161 1 concerning his taxes, his -- repairs on his 2 house and a lot of personal details about his 3 life and his actions is one example. 4 Q Some of the details about his life 5 concerned whether or not he had ever been 6 arrested? 7 A No. 8 Q Did it concern whether he had ever 9 had a problem with the law? 10 A No. 11 Q What did it concern, generically, 12 based on what's publicly known? 13 A I think I just told you. 14 Q What was the concern with Secretary 15 Aspin? 16 MR. QUINLIVAN: We are going to 17 object to this. We're not going to go into 18 what Secretary's Aspin's background was. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm talking about 20 public information, what he knew at the time 21 is public. 22 MR. QUINLIVAN: It's not anywhere 162 1 near being within the scope of the judge's 2 guidance. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Oh, it is and it 4 deals with the whole course of conduct here. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Please respond. 7 MR. QUINLIVAN: No, we're going to 8 direct the witness not to respond. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Other than Secretary Aspin, any 12 other instances? 13 A I have released -- I have dealt 14 with the release of information. That's as 15 far as I want to go. 16 Q On how many occasions up to Linda 17 Tripp? 18 A I can't -- 19 Q Roughly speaking. 20 A I don't know. 21 Q Hundreds of occasions, correct? 22 A No. 163 1 Q Tens of occasions? 2 A Tens of occasions would be closer 3 to accurate. 4 Q Were you ever accused of violating 5 the Privacy Act up to the Linda Tripp 6 controversy? 7 A No. 8 Q Were you ever investigated for 9 violating the Privacy Act up to the Linda 10 Tripp controversy? 11 A No. 12 Q Up to the point of the Linda Tripp 13 controversy you were confident that you had 14 never released Privacy Act covered material, 15 correct? 16 A Up to the time of the Linda Tripp I 17 have never had a -- any accusation or problem 18 with any information that I've released. 19 Q But you yourself were confident 20 that you hadn't released some information 21 improperly under the Privacy Act, correct? 22 A Are you talking about prior to or 164 1 including? 2 Q Prior to. 3 A Yes. 4 Q Generically speaking, what type of 5 information had you released that wasn't 6 covered by the Privacy Act? 7 A Generically speaking, when an 8 individual -- when an individual is involved 9 in some action that makes that individual 10 more newsworthy, we tend to be -- tend to 11 release a little more information than you 12 would on somebody who is lower ranking. 13 Q How is that determination made? 14 Are there any guidelines for it? 15 A Not that I'm aware of. 16 Q When you say we, who is we? 17 A In public affairs. 18 Q Who in public affairs makes that 19 determination besides yourself? 20 A Well, I think that it's made on an 21 individual basis. You know, we try to 22 respect the privacy, but there are also 165 1 public interest concerns. So I don't think 2 there is a guideline. I'm not aware of a 3 guideline. 4 Q So is this subjective 5 determination? 6 A To an extent. 7 Q In making that determination does 8 anyone in public affairs consult with the 9 Privacy Act? Has that ever occurred? 10 A I'm sure it does. 11 Q Do you know if that ever happened? 12 A Are you asking -- 13 Q Up to the point of Linda Tripp? 14 A I am sure that as -- that we 15 frequently refer to general counsel on 16 questions when they come up. 17 Q But you can't tell me a specific 18 instance today, can you? 19 A No, because I haven't been involved 20 in it. But it does occur. 21 Q Before releasing the information on 22 Linda Tripp did you consult with counsel? 166 1 MR. QUINLIVAN: Okay. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q You can respond. 4 MR. QUINLIVAN: You can respond. 5 THE WITNESS: No, I did not. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Did you consult with anyone? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Who did you consult with? 10 A I consulted with my boss, 11 Mr. Bacon. 12 Q Anyone else? 13 A Certainly we, in obtaining the 14 records, dealt with the -- some other people 15 and they knew what the -- what I was working 16 towards, so -- but I would not call those 17 consultations. 18 Q Who were those other people that 19 the records were obtained from? 20 A David Cook, who is the Director of 21 Administration and Management for the 22 Washington Headquarter Services. 167 1 Q Where is he located? 2 A In the Pentagon. 3 Q Who else? 4 A Mr. Steve O'Toole, who is the 5 director -- I'm want sure what his title is, 6 but he had -- he was in charge of some of the 7 security records. 8 Q What office does he work in? 9 A He works in the Pentagon. He works 10 for DOC Cook or David Cook. 11 Q Is he located in Washington, D.C., 12 at the Pentagon? 13 A Yes, he is. 14 Q Anyone else? 15 A At the Defense Security Service, 16 and I can't remember his name, Les. Les 17 somebody. He was the one who had the actual 18 security form itself. 19 Q Where is that office located? 20 A I believe the DSS is in the 21 Pentagon also, but I don't know where that 22 is. 168 1 Q Anyone else? 2 A No. 3 Q Was there any contact with 4 Department of Defense personnel in Baltimore? 5 A No, not from us, not from me. 6 Q Was any of the documentation that 7 was ultimately obtained procured from 8 Baltimore? 9 A Not that I'm aware of. Not that 10 I'm aware of. 11 Q Let's back up here. Do you have to 12 seek someone's approval before you release 13 information to the media in the ordinary 14 course of your duties? 15 A No. 16 Q In the case of Linda Tripp, before 17 that information was released to the media, 18 did you seek anyone's approval? 19 A Just my boss'. 20 Q Mr. Bacon? 21 A (Nodding) 22 Q Answer. 169 1 A Yes. 2 Q So you sought his authorization and 3 you were releasing the information on his 4 authorization? 5 A That's correct. 6 Q Was there anyone else that you have 7 knowledge of inside or outside of the 8 Pentagon that provided authorization to 9 release Ms. Tripp's information to the media? 10 A No. 11 Q Do you know whether Mr. Bacon had 12 talked to anyone inside the Pentagon about 13 releasing the information? 14 A I know he had talked to David Cook 15 also, DOC Cook. 16 Q Anyone else? 17 A Not that I'm aware of. 18 Q Mr. Bacon did talk with people 19 inside the Secretary of Defense's office, did 20 he not, before Mrs. Tripp's information was 21 released? 22 A I don't know who he talked to. I'm 170 1 not aware. 2 Q Did you ever ask? 3 A No. You mean about this incident? 4 No. 5 Q Let's go back to this determination 6 on whether material is Privacy Act or not and 7 then we'll come back to this line of 8 questioning. 9 Are there any written guidelines 10 inside the office to determine whether 11 information is privacy material or not? 12 A No. 13 Q Are there any known oral guidelines 14 to make that determination? 15 A Not that I'm aware of, not since 16 I've been there. 17 Q Were there any memoranda created at 18 the time that Linda Tripp's information was 19 released about why it was being released? 20 A I prepared public affairs guidance 21 that -- well, that I had released the 22 information itself so that the other public 171 1 affairs officers would know what had been 2 released. 3 Q But was there any analysis written 4 down as to why Tripp's information was being 5 released? 6 A Not outside of public affairs 7 guidance that I'm aware of that I can 8 remember. 9 Q Not outside of public affairs? 10 A Guidance. 11 Q Guidance. What is public affairs 12 guidance? 13 A That's what we prepare to answer 14 questions should media respond to their or 15 ask a question. 16 Q That was prepared specifically with 17 regard to Ms. Tripp? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Has that document been produced 20 here today? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Which document is that? 172 1 MR. QUINLIVAN: Can I just ask 2 counsel when you were planning on taking a 3 lunch break? 4 MR. KLAYMAN: I thought we would 5 take a lunch break in about a half hour and 6 there is a hearing in front of the court 7 at 2:30. 8 MS. WEISMANN: There is? 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Yeah. 10 THE WITNESS: Document 39 -- 11 MS. WEISMANN: Well, then I think 12 if we're going to have a hearing in front of 13 the court, we need some time to get some 14 lunch before. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, that's what I'm 16 saying. Providing some time, that's 45 17 minutes. 18 MS. WEISMANN: We have to get down 19 to the courthouse, so why don't we take a 20 break at 1:30. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: How about 1:35. Is 22 that all right? 173 1 MS. WEISMANN: Fine. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Fine. 3 THE WITNESS: Document 39, RTQ is 4 response to query. You asked me if there was 5 a document. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q When was this prepared? 8 A That was prepared the day that I 9 talked to Ms. Mayer and I -- so what was 10 that? That was the 13th or 14th. It was the 11 Friday, whatever date that was. 12 Q Do you know if anyone in the 13 Pentagon has ever been disciplined for 14 releasing Privacy Act information? 15 A I don't know. 16 Q Did there come a point in time when 17 you were requested by anyone to provide 18 information about Ms. Tripp? 19 A I'm sorry. That's so broad I don't 20 know how to -- 21 Q Did there come a point in time when 22 you were requested to provide information 174 1 about Ms. Tripp's prior history before 2 joining the Pentagon? 3 A You mean -- let me just see if I 4 understand your question. Did we have any 5 occasion to release information about her 6 about the time before she came to the 7 Pentagon? 8 Q Right. Were you asked to provide 9 information about her history before she came 10 to the Pentagon? Was there a point in time 11 when that occurred? 12 A Our office had. I had not. But we 13 certainly received a lot of questions about 14 it, about her past before she came to the 15 Pentagon, yes. 16 Q Who made those inquiries? 17 A I'd say no fewer than 40 or 50 18 members of the media. 19 Q Were those requests made to you? 20 A No. 21 Q Who were they made to? 22 A To the director for defense 175 1 information. 2 Q Who is that? 3 A That's the directorate who is 4 normally charged with responding to media 5 questions. 6 Q Who is that person? 7 A It's about 30 people. 8 Q Who is the supervisor of that group 9 of 30 people? 10 A Colonel Richard Bridges. 11 Q Who is the second in command? 12 A Brian Whitman. 13 Q Who is the third in command? 14 A I don't think that they have a 15 chain of command beyond that. 16 Q Other than those two individuals, 17 do you know if there are others who work in 18 that office who received requests from the 19 media about Ms. Tripp? 20 A Certainly Ken Bacon did, certainly 21 I did, phone calls came in to the front 22 office. If you can picture it, on 176 1 January 21st the phones did not stop ringing 2 anywhere in public affairs for the entire 3 day, for the entire week afterwards. 4 Q Well, how did you find out that 5 these request were being made to this other 6 office that you just identified? 7 A In staff meetings that -- we would 8 talk about numbers of queries. We also 9 prepared what you saw here in document 10 number 30. This is the questions that had 11 been asked and how we respond to them. 12 Q Who was present at the staff 13 meetings? 14 A I can't -- if anything came up at 15 the morning meetings, then all of the 16 directors -- most of the directors would have 17 been there. 18 Q Who were the directors at that 19 time? 20 A You want all the directors who 21 would have been there? 22 Q Who were there at the staff 177 1 meetings when the Monica Lewinsky/Linda Tripp 2 matter broke. 3 A Well, you see, I can't tell you 4 that because I can't tell you specifically 5 which meetings -- you know, we have a staff 6 meeting every morning. I can't tell you 7 which meetings we discussed it and which ones 8 we don't. I just don't have that memory. 9 Q Who in the ordinary course of what 10 goes on in that office would likely have been 11 present at those meetings after this 12 controversy became known? 13 A It would have been Mr. Bacon, it 14 would have been myself, Mr. Wilson, Captain 15 Doubleday, Ms. Pursell, Mr. Whitman, 16 Lieutenant Colonel Scott and some of the 17 military assistants. 18 Q Who were they? 19 A They rotate, so I don't know which 20 ones would have been in there. 21 Q Who made have been in there? 22 A Commander Grabiel, Colonel Vega and 178 1 at that time it would have been Lieutenant 2 Colonel Boltz. 3 Q B-o-l-t-z? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Was there a White House liaison at 6 the Pentagon present during these meetings? 7 A Never. 8 Q Were there inquiries being received 9 by you or anyone else from the Pentagon from 10 the White House during this period for 11 information? 12 A I am not aware of any request from 13 the White House for any information. 14 Q Any contact concerning Linda Tripp 15 during this period from the White House? 16 A Not that I'm aware of, no. 17 Q You can't remember? 18 A No, I'm saying not that I'm aware 19 of. 20 Q You don't know whether or not that 21 contact was made with people other than 22 yourself? 179 1 A That's correct. 2 Q You don't know whether it was made 3 with Colonel Bacon. Do you? 4 A Mr. Bacon? 5 Q Mr. Bacon. 6 A No, I do not know that. 7 Q What was Mr. Wilson's job title? 8 A He was Deputy Assistant, Secretary 9 of Defense. 10 Q What were his duties and 11 responsibilities at the time? 12 A He was in Linda Tripp's direct 13 supervisory chain. 14 Q Besides being in the supervisory 15 chain what were his duties and 16 responsibilities? 17 A He did community relations, press 18 events for the Secretary and Deputy Secretary 19 of Defense and outreach programs. 20 Q During these meetings that occurred 21 after the Tripp matter broke, what was 22 discussed, generally, during these meetings? 180 1 What can you remember was discussed? I'm not 2 asking you any specific meetings, just 3 generally. 4 A In general we discussed the press 5 coverage of the day and where it was. 6 Q The press coverage with regard to 7 Lewinsky and Tripp? 8 A Correct. 9 Q What else was discussed? 10 A That was the purpose of the meeting 11 was to determine where the press was on a 12 given day. 13 Q Well, did you also discuss what the 14 response of the Pentagon would be to media 15 inquiries about this controversy? 16 A Sometimes. 17 Q Was there a position that was 18 decided upon as to what that response would 19 be? 20 A On major issues we had certain 21 messages that were developed, as you can see, 22 in the document here. 181 1 Q Well, I'm just asking you right now 2 what was the message that was developed with 3 regard to Linda Tripp and Monica Lewinsky, 4 the controversy? 5 A Most of the message was that -- 6 that these are allegations being handled by 7 the office of Independent Counsel and it 8 would be inappropriate for us to comment on 9 them. 10 Q It would be inappropriate for you 11 to provide any information relating to this 12 controversy, correct? 13 A To the controversy, but not to 14 specific information about their employment 15 or things that in the Pentagon. 16 Q Did you want to add something more? 17 A No. 18 Q So it was decided that at those 19 meetings that you and others could release 20 information specifically about the 21 individuals involved, Ms. Tripp or 22 Ms. Lewinsky? 182 1 A The meetings were never in that 2 degree of specificity. We never discussed in 3 that forum how to answer a specific what is 4 to be released or what's not to be released. 5 Q Was there any discussion as to 6 whether or not information could be released 7 at all during those meetings? 8 A The only general guidance that we 9 put out was that we would not speculate that 10 the information that we put out would be 11 factual. 12 Q What type of information was it 13 decided that could be put out? 14 A We did not talk in that degree, so 15 we didn't talk about that. 16 Q Was it decided that only certain 17 individuals could put out information about 18 the controversy and the individuals involved? 19 A After awhile, after the initial 20 media went -- interest died down we talked 21 about limiting it to a few people. I don't 22 think we ever did totally limit it though. 183 1 Q When did that occur, roughly 2 speaking? 3 A It seems like a couple of weeks, 4 maybe even -- about a couple of weeks after 5 the controversy started, after the 6 January 21st release. 7 Q Who made the decision as to who 8 could release information? 9 A It was not a meeting where somebody 10 made a decision. It was a general agreement 11 type meeting. 12 Q Who participated in that meeting? 13 A Mr. Bacon, myself, Mr. Wilson, 14 Colonel Bridges, probably Brian Whitman, 15 probably Captain Doubleday. I can't 16 remember. 17 Q What date was that? 18 A I do not remember. 19 Q Was it before or after you received 20 the call from Jane Mayer, the first call? 21 A I believe it was before. 22 Q Who was decided could release 184 1 information? 2 A We, generally, decided that the 3 people sitting around that table would be the 4 ones that should be doing it. 5 Q You discussed specifically what 6 information could be released and what could 7 not? 8 A No. 9 Q You are aware that Linda Tripp had 10 a top secret security clearance, correct? 11 A Oh, yes. 12 Q To be able to obtain that top 13 secret security clearance she would have had 14 to have gone through a background security 15 investigation, correct? 16 A Yes. 17 Q That background security 18 investigation, you are aware, is conducted by 19 the Federal Bureau of Investigation, correct? 20 A Actually my understanding is that 21 there are levels of investigations, some of 22 them done by Defense Investigative Service. 185 1 So I'm not sure who does what levels of 2 investigation. 3 Q But you are aware that the FBI does 4 do background security investigations, 5 correct? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Yes? 8 A Yes. 9 Q In fact, you've had one conducted 10 by the FBI, at least one haven't you? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Have you had more than one? 13 A Well, I would guess, yes, over 14 my 30-year career but, again, nobody has ever 15 told me that the FBI did it. I've never 16 been -- I don't recall ever being interviewed 17 by an FBI agent, frankly. 18 Q You are aware that the information 19 contained in those background security 20 investigations are classified, that 21 information is classified? 22 A No. 186 1 Q Secret? 2 A I'm sorry. 3 Q Not to be released to the public? 4 A There is no classification on any 5 of those forms that I am aware of. 6 Q You're aware that the information 7 that is gathered by the FBI or whatever 8 investigative service is not public 9 information, correct? 10 A Normally that's true. 11 Q You are aware that when you start 12 to work at the Pentagon, you have to fill out 13 certain forms? 14 A Yes. 15 Q What forms specifically did 16 Ms. Tripp have to fill out before she began 17 working at the Pentagon? 18 A I don't know. I mean I wasn't 19 there. She -- I mean I had to fill out a 171, 20 an employment record, any background 21 information. 22 Q Form 398? 187 1 A 398, yes. 2 Q In fact, the document you made 3 reference to, number 39, the documents 4 produced today, makes reference to Form 398 5 that Ms. Tripp filled out, correct? 6 A Right. 7 Q You were aware at the time of this 8 meting that the information contained on 9 Form 398 was not public information? 10 A Which meeting are you referring to? 11 Q The meeting you just described 12 where it was decided that information could 13 be released about the individuals involved in 14 the Lewinsky/Tripp controversy. 15 A The meeting that I just described 16 did not talk about that. The meeting that I 17 described just dealt with a general who was 18 going to be releasing information on it. 19 Q But up to that point in time you 20 were aware that the information contained on 21 Form 398 was not public information? 22 A That it is not generally made 188 1 public, yes. 2 Q You are aware that information 3 contained in FBI files is not public 4 information? You were aware of that up to 5 that time? 6 A Actually I have no knowledge of FBI 7 files. I should add also that the 398 is not 8 an FBI file. That's why I don't have any 9 knowledge of the FBI stuff. 10 Q You just stated that you were aware 11 that the information contained in Form 398 12 was not generally or normally made public, 13 correct? 14 A I said generally, yes. 15 Q Up to the point in time of the 16 meeting you just described did you receive 17 any guidance from any source as to what could 18 be made public of information on Form 398? 19 A Not that I remember, no. 20 Q So you had no basis to believe that 21 any information contained on 398 could be 22 made public? 189 1 A That's not my experience. My 2 experience, again, is that there is a 3 judgment call to be made about the public's 4 right -- public interest versus the privacy 5 and certainly privacy has to be considered 6 and the general inclination as towards 7 privacy, but it is not absolutely. 8 Q Are you aware of any guidelines 9 written or oral at the Department of Defense 10 with regard to what information can and can't 11 be released to the public on Form 398? 12 A No. 13 Q Up to the point of releasing 14 information from Ms. Tripp's Form 398 had you 15 ever released information from someone else's 16 Form 398? 17 A I had never been asked; however, 18 the next day I released the same information 19 on Mr. Bacon. 20 Q Did you get specific authorization 21 from Mr. Bacon to do that? You did, didn't 22 you? 190 1 A I did after the fact. I did -- I 2 was able to obtain his 398 through the same 3 source as this without his permission. 4 Q When did you get the authorization 5 after the fact? 6 A After I had received the 398 in my 7 hand. 8 Q When you received the 398, you then 9 asked for authorization from Mr. Bacon to 10 release some information from him? 11 A That's correct. 12 Q But up to that point in time you 13 hadn't released any information? 14 A I had never had a question on it. 15 Q So before you released it to the 16 public you got Mr. Bacon's approval? 17 A Yes. 18 Q You didn't do that with Ms. Tripp, 19 did you? 20 A That's correct. 21 Q You did not? 22 A That's correct. 191 1 Q So the answer to my question is, 2 other than Ms. Tripp and Mr. Bacon you had 3 never released information from a Form 398 4 before? 5 A I had never been asked to release 6 information, so I never released information. 7 Q So the answer is no, you had not 8 released information from the Form 398 except 9 for Ms. Tripp and Mr. Bacon? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Don't know of anyone else at the 12 Department of Defense ever having released 13 information from a Form 398, do you? 14 A I'm not personally aware of. 15 Q Mr. Bacon's authorization to 16 release information from his Form 398 was in 17 writing? 18 A No. 19 Q How was it made? 20 A Orally. 21 Q Where did you receive that 22 authorization? Were you in a meeting? 192 1 A No, I don't remember. I mean I was 2 not in the meeting. I think it was just his 3 office is right across from mine. 4 Q At the time that you released 5 information on the 398 with regard to 6 Ms. Tripp you were aware that that was 7 Privacy Act information, correct? 8 A No, the fact is that it was one in 9 a series of dozens of phone calls and it did 10 not occur to me at the time that I was 11 dealing with Privacy Act information. That's 12 what happened. 13 Q But your previous testimony is that 14 you had been trained on the Privacy Act 15 before you released it? 16 A I had received training years 17 before. At the time of the release the 18 question of whether it was privacy or not did 19 not enter any of the minds of myself or the 20 people who I dealt with. 21 Q You have previously seen a copy of 22 the Privacy Act, have you not? 193 1 A I'm sure I have. 2 Q You saw it before you released 3 Ms. Tripp's information? 4 A Years. I do not have a copy of it 5 on my desk or anything like that, no. 6 Q I show you what I'll ask the court 7 reporter to mark as Exhibit 7. 8 MR. QUINLIVAN: Counsel maybe this 9 will be a good time -- 10 MR. KLAYMAN: I just want to ask 11 one or two more questions. Ms. Weismann, 12 please do not interrupt. You are not counsel 13 of record in this deposition. 14 MS. WEISMANN: I am counsel of 15 record, Mr. Klayman. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Not at this 17 deposition. 18 MS. WEISMANN: We're going off the 19 record now. If you want to go forward with 20 the hearing at 2:30, the witness and the rest 21 of us are entitled to get lunch first. If 22 you want to change the time of that hearing, 194 1 we can go forward for a few more minutes. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Ms. Weismann, that 3 attitude is not necessary. I just have two 4 questions left. 5 MS. WEISMANN: It's not a question 6 of attitude. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: You have a 8 significant attitude. 9 MS. WEISMANN: It's 1:35. We 10 agreed in advance that we would take a lunch 11 at 1:35. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: It's not 1:35 on my 13 watch and I want to ask one or two questions 14 more. Are you saying I can't? 15 MS. WEISMANN: Does the 16 videographer, do you have time on your 17 videographer, it can record the time? 18 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: Yes. 19 MS. WEISMANN: What time does it 20 reflect right now? 21 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: I have 1:36. 22 MS. WEISMANN: Thank you. 195 1 MR. KLAYMAN: You're leaving, 2 Ms. Weismann? 3 MS. WEISMANN: We agreed in advance 4 that we would stop at 1:35 to get a lunch 5 break. If you want to agree that we'll go 6 later before the court, then we will be 7 willing to go for a few minutes more, but if 8 you still insist that we're going to go 9 forward at 2:30, yes, we are stopping as we 10 agreed in advance the time you -- 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's let record 12 reflect that you're stopping this 13 involuntary -- 14 MS. WEISMANN: You picked the time, 15 Mr. Klayman. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: -- and that you have 17 interrupted the representation by 18 Mr. Quinlivan of this witness. This is 19 inappropriate professional conduct. 20 MS. WEISMANN: We'll see you in 21 court at 2:30. 22 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: We're going off 196 1 video record at 1:37. 2 (Discussion off the record) 3 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: We're back on 4 video record at 1:37. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: I would ask that the 6 court reporter be present in Courtroom 21 for 7 the hearing at 2:30 and bring any 8 transcription that you have. 9 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: We're going off 10 video record at 1:38. 11 (Whereupon, at 1:38 p.m., a 12 luncheon recess was taken.) 13 * * * * *
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of this deposition