DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA
       3    CARA LESLIE ALEXANDER    :
            et al.,                  :
       4                             :
                       Plaintiffs    :
       5                             :
                      v.             : Civil No. 96-2123 (RCL)
       6                             :
            FEDERAL BUREAU OF        :
       7    INVESTIGATION et al.,    :
       8               Defendants.   :
                                              Washington, D.C.
                                      Thursday, April 16, 1998

      12    Video deposition of

      13                 THOMAS D. JANENDA

      14    a witness, called for examination by counsel

      15    for Plaintiffs pursuant to notice and

      16    agreement of counsel, beginning at

      17    approximately 10:15 a.m. at the offices of

      18    Judicial Watch, Inc., 501 School Street

      19    Southwest, Washington, D.C., before Shari R.

      20    Broussard, notary public in and for the

      21    District of Columbia, when were present on

      22    behalf of the respective parties:


       1    APPEARANCES:

       2       On behalf of Plaintiffs:

       3          LARRY KLAYMAN, ESQUIRE
                  DON BOSTION, ESQUIRE
       4          Judicial Watch, Inc.
                  501 School Street, Southwest, Suite 725
       5          Washington, D.C. 20024
                  (202) 646-5172
               On behalf of Defendant Executive Office
       7              of the President:

                  Special Associate Counsel to the President
       9          The White House
                  Washington, D.C. 20500
      10          (202) 456-5079

      11       On behalf of Defendant Hilary Rodham Clinton:

      12          MARCIE ZIEGLER, ESQUIRE
                  Williams & Connolly
      13          725 Twelfth Street Northwest
                  Washington, D.C. 20005
      14          (202) 434-5803

      15       On behalf of Defendants Federal Bureau of
                      Investigation and Executive Office
      16              of the President:

      17          ALLISON GILES, ESQUIRE
                  Federal Prograams Branch
      18          Civil Division
                  United States Department of Justice
      19          901 E Street Northwest, Room 988
                  Washington, D.C. 20530
      20          (202) 514-5302

                            *  *  *  *  *


       1                   C O N T E N T S

       2    EXAMINATION BY:                            PAGE

       3       Counsel for Plaintiffs                     7


       5    No.  1 - Notice of Deposition                48
                      Duces Tecum, Attachments
            No.  2 - Response to Plaintiffs'             52
       7              Notice of Deposition

       8    No.  3 - Diagram                             87

       9    No.  4 - Press Release                      256

      10    No.  5 - Article: "Carville:  I Zapped      264
                      Starr's Charges"
            No.  6 - "Weekly Roundtable" Transcript     314
            No.  7 - Special Report: "The               338
      13              Communication Stream of
                      Conspiracy Commerce,"
      14              Attachments

      15    No.  8 - "The GOP is Using Congress         360
                      as a Committee on Harassing
      16              the President," Attachments

      17    No.  9 - 1998 Calendar - Office             366

      18    No. 10 - 1998 Calendar - Home               368

                            *  *  *  *  *




       1                P R O C E E D I N G S

       2              VIDEO TECHNICIAN:  Good morning.

       3    This is the video deposition of Thomas D.

       4    Janenda taken by counsel for Plaintiffs in

       5    the matter of Cara Leslie Alexander, et al., 

       6    v. Federal Bureau of Investigation, et al.,

       7    in the U.S. District Court for the District

       8    of Columbia, Case Number 96-2123, held in the

       9    offices of Judicial Watch, 501 School Street

      10    Southwest, Washington, D.C., on this date,

      11    April 16, 1998, and at the time indicated on

      12    the video screen.

      13              My name is Sylvanus Holley.  I'm

      14    the videographer.  The court reporter today

      15    is Shari Broussard from the firm of Beta

      16    Reporting.  Will counsel please identify

      17    themselves?

      18              MR. KLAYMAN:  Larry Klayman, if we

      19    can pan to the various counsel, on behalf of

      20    Judicial Watch.

      21              MR. BOSTION:  Don Bostion with

      22    Judicial Watch.


       1              MS. GILES:  Allison Giles with the

       2    Department of Justice for Mr. Janenda,

       3    Executive Office of the President, and the

       4    Federal Bureau of Investigation.

       5              MS. PAXTON:  Sally Paxton for the

       6    White House.

       7              MS. ZIEGLER:  Marcie Ziegler for

       8    the First Lady.

       9              VIDEO TECHNICIAN:  Will the court

      10    reporter please swear in the witness?

      11    Whereupon,

      12                  THOMAS D. JANENDA

      13    was called as a witness and, having been

      14    first duly sworn, was examined and testified

      15    as follows:

      16              MS. GILES:  Let me state at the

      17    outset I have our responses to Plaintiffs'

      18    notice of deposition, original and two copies

      19    of the documents that were produced.  I'll

      20    hand them to Mr. Bostion.

      21              Could we note what time the video

      22    tape is?


       1              MR. KLAYMAN:  We're going to put a

       2    few things on the record here.

       3              Just let the record reflect that

       4    the videographer currently has on his

       5    videographing equipment the time of 9:17.  We

       6    began at 9:15, 15 minutes later than noticed

       7    because of the time needed by the

       8    videographer to get his equipment to

       9    function, but it's now in Eastern Standard

      10    Time.  So with that qualification I hope that

      11    will put everybody in the right time sync.

      12              On the issue of time I have an

      13    appointment at 1:30 and I'm wondering if we

      14    can break for lunch at 1:25, if that would be

      15    all right with you?

      16              MS. GILES:  That's fine unless we

      17    need a break sooner, but that's fine.

      18              MR. KLAYMAN:  Okay.

      19              MS. GILES:  Can we keep the break

      20    fairly short, a half hour?

      21              MR. KLAYMAN:  Well, I need about an

      22    hour, hour and-a-half, somewhere in that


       1    range, but, if necessary Mr. Bostion can

       2    carry on if I don't get back after an hour.

       3              MS. GILES:  That's fine.

       4              MR. KLAYMAN:  The other aspect is

       5    that we're aware that Ms. Paxton is here.  We

       6    know of your previous insistence to be here.

       7    You're aware of our objections.  I don't want

       8    to make an issue of it here.  But just for

       9    the record, we've asked that Ms. Paxton not

      10    consult with the witness during the

      11    deposition.  If you stand by your earlier

      12    position that she will do so, then I just

      13    want to put that on the record.

      14              MS. GILES:  We stand by our earlier

      15    objection and feel that she is free to

      16    consult with either me or Mr. Janenda during

      17    the deposition.


      19              BY MR. KLAYMAN:

      20         Q    Have we sworn the witness in?

      21              Would you please state your name?

      22         A    Thomas D. Janenda.


       1         Q    When were you born, Mr. Janenda?

       2         A    February 25, 1969.

       3         Q    And where were you born?

       4         A    Manchester, Connecticut.

       5         Q    Tell us where you attended high

       6    school.

       7         A    Manchester Public High School.

       8         Q    And when did you graduate?

       9         A    1987.

      10         Q    And what did you do upon

      11    graduation?

      12         A    I went to college.

      13         Q    Which college did you attend?

      14         A    I began at the University of

      15    Connecticut and finished at American

      16    University here in Washington.

      17         Q    When did you began at the

      18    University of Connecticut?

      19         A    Fall of 1988, following the year --

      20         Q    Graduation?

      21         A    Yeah.

      22         Q    And what did you major in in


       1    college?

       2         A    A liberal arts degree, political

       3    science.

       4         Q    And when did you graduate?

       5         A    1991, May.

       6         Q    During the time that you were in

       7    high school or college did you have any

       8    disciplinary problems?

       9         A    No, sir.

      10         Q    And what did you do upon graduation

      11    from college?

      12         A    In terms of work experience

      13    specifically or --

      14         Q    Whatever.

      15         A    Whatever?

      16         Q    Professionally speaking.

      17         A    I was -- I volunteered briefly on a

      18    campaign in Massachusetts.  My first paying

      19    job after college was on the Harrison --

      20         Q    Let's start with the volunteer on

      21    the campaign.  Whose campaign did you

      22    volunteer for?


       1         A    John Olver, was a congressional

       2    candidate from Western Massachusetts I

       3    believe.  I -- that was unpaid.

       4         Q    Unpaid.  That was upon your

       5    graduation?

       6         A    Yeah.

       7         Q    How long did you work on that

       8    campaign?

       9         A    It was about two weeks.

      10         Q    And What did you do?

      11         A    I passed out leaflets and whatnot.

      12    I mean just -- I was a get-out-the-vote type

      13    volunteer for the last week or week

      14    and-a-half of the campaign.

      15         Q    Did you do any research on

      16    opposition candidates or anyone else?

      17         A    No, sir.

      18         Q    And what did you do after your

      19    two-week volunteer period with the candidate

      20    Olver?

      21         A    My first paying job was for the

      22    citizens for Senator Harris Wofford, which


       1    was a senate candidate in Pennsylvania.

       2         Q    And what job did you have?

       3         A    I was a junior fund raising staff

       4    person.

       5         Q    What year was that?

       6         A    1991.

       7         Q    Was this during the year that

       8    Wofford was already senator and was running

       9    for re-election or was this just when he was

      10    seeking election the first time?

      11         A    It was when he was seeking the

      12    election the first time.  He had been

      13    appointed to the seat and was running for the

      14    first time.

      15         Q    Who was your immediate supervisor

      16    on that campaign?

      17         A    My immediate supervisor was a

      18    gentleman  named Scott Gale.

      19         Q    G-A-L-E?

      20         A    Correct.

      21         Q    And who were the campaign managers

      22    on that campaign of Senator Wofford?


       1         A    The campaign manager was Paul

       2    Begala and his deputy was -- I can't remember

       3    her name, but then James Carville was the --

       4    also running the campaign, senior strategist

       5    or --

       6         Q    During that campaign, during your

       7    work, did you have any contact with

       8    Mr. Begala or Mr. Carville?

       9         A    I'm sure I probably did, although

      10    not very much.  I didn't work in the -- when

      11    I first began, I was in the Washington office

      12    and I had -- you know, would pass them in the

      13    hallway.  But for the majority of the

      14    campaign I was in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania,

      15    and the main campaign office was in

      16    Philadelphia.  So, yes, I did have contact

      17    occasionally with them.

      18         Q    Under what circumstances did you

      19    have contact?  What was the nature of the

      20    contact?

      21         A    Largely I would have to say just in

      22    passing in that I was a junior finance


       1    staffer.  I think maybe I might bump into

       2    them or they might know me to say hello.  I

       3    think when I first joined, I had -- Paul

       4    Begala sort of welcomed -- said welcome to

       5    the campaign type speech, but I didn't have a

       6    great deal of contact with them.

       7         Q    Did you ever deal with them in a

       8    professional capacity?  In other words, tell

       9    them you what were doing in terms of fund

      10    raising or other matters?

      11         A    I don't recall that.  There was a

      12    deputy campaign manager who really dealt more

      13    with the logistics of -- of the campaign and

      14    James and Paul were really more of on the

      15    media side of the campaign.

      16         Q    Who was the deputy campaign

      17    manager?

      18         A    A woman named Pat -- Pat Ewing.

      19    Pat Ewing was her name.

      20         Q    But I take it during the campaign

      21    you did get to know both Mr. Begala and

      22    Mr. Carville by first name?  You call Paul


       1    Paul and Carville James?

       2         A    Yeah, I think my -- the best of my

       3    recollection, that's what everybody called

       4    them.

       5         Q    How many people worked on the

       6    campaign, were direct employees?

       7         A    I'd be guessing.

       8         Q    Roughly speaking?

       9         A    Roughly speaking, I would say 20,

      10    25, something like that.  I have no idea if

      11    that's --

      12         Q    Did you know Mr. Begala and/or

      13    Mr. Carville before that campaign?

      14         A    I did not, no.

      15         Q    How did you get your job?

      16         A    I had done some volunteer work,

      17    co-op type work, while I was at American

      18    University and, to the best of my

      19    recollection, I was -- I had just gotten

      20    to -- I had gotten to know some people from

      21    Washington.  For instance, the volunteer

      22    experience that I told you about was because


       1    of those experiences and then I met someone

       2    working at the DNC who ran their job bank on

       3    that -- during that course of that volunteer

       4    experience and my recollection is that the

       5    Wofford campaign fund raising person had

       6    calmed the DNC looking for suggestions of

       7    names to people -- for people to interview

       8    and mine was one of the names that was

       9    forwarded.

      10         Q    And who recommend you at the DNC?

      11         A    The best recollection I have is

      12    that it was a gentleman named Andrew Morin

      13    who was running the job bank?

      14         Q    That's M-O-R-I-N?

      15         A    To the best of my recollection,

      16    yes, sir.

      17         Q    Have you ever met Craig

      18    Livingstone?

      19         A    No.

      20         Q    Do you know who he is?

      21         A    I do know from reading reports, but

      22    I don't believe I've ever met him personally.


       1         Q    Was he involved in any way in the

       2    Wofford campaign back in 1991?  Do you know?

       3         A    I -- I can't speak for the entire

       4    campaign, but I personally don't have any

       5    knowledge of him.

       6         Q    Did you ever meet Anthony Marceca?

       7         A    Again, not to the best of my --

       8         Q    You know who I'm talking about?

       9         A    From media reports I certainly do,

      10    yes.

      11         Q    What in addition to fund raising

      12    did you do in that campaign?

      13         A    That was pretty much it.  That was

      14    my job, was to, you know, raise money, do my

      15    best to assist the fund raising staff.

      16         Q    You were aware on that Wofford

      17    campaign there were persons doing opposition

      18    research on Governor Thornberg?

      19         A    Yes, I was aware of that.

      20         Q    How did you become aware of that?

      21         A    I -- when I moved up to Harrisburg,

      22    as I mentioned, there was a gentleman that I


       1    roomed with named Zack Silverstein, and he

       2    was one of the people that was doing record

       3    on -- doing research on then -- well, I can't

       4    remember up to -- Dick Thornberg's record as

       5    governor, his public record as governor.  So

       6    I was certainly aware there was research

       7    going on.

       8         Q    Where is Mr. Silverstein today?

       9         A    To the best of my knowledge, he is

      10    still in law school in Chicago.

      11         Q    Does he go to the University of

      12    Chicago?

      13         A    I believe it's --

      14         Q    Northwestern?

      15         A    Northwestern I believe.

      16         Q    Who else was doing opposition

      17    research on that Wofford campaign?

      18         A    To the best of my recollection,

      19    there were three people.  Eric Berman, Jim --

      20    I think it was Jim Bernfield.

      21         Q    How do you spell that?

      22         A    I would be guessing, but I believe


       1    it's B-E-R-N-F-I-E-L-D.  And I already

       2    mentioned Zack Silverstein.

       3         Q    Was Berman and Bernfield doing

       4    anything in addition to what Silverstein was

       5    doing?

       6         A    I honestly -- I mean I can't speak.

       7    I mean I didn't have very much contact with

       8    them.

       9         Q    Where is Eric Berman today?

      10         A    He lives in and works in New York

      11    City.

      12         Q    Do you know who he works for?

      13         A    He works for a PR firm.  I'm not

      14    clear.  I -- I would rather not guess.  It's

      15    a PR firm in New York.

      16         Q    Well, this is discovery.  If you

      17    have some --

      18         A    My inkling --

      19         Q    Fine, give an inkling.

      20         A    -- is that it's Kekst & Company.

      21         Q    Kekst with a "K"?

      22         A    Yes.


       1         Q    How is that spelled?

       2         A    I think it's K-e-k-s-t is my --

       3    that's a guess.

       4         Q    And where is Mr. Bernfield?

       5         A    I don't know.

       6         Q    How do you know that Eric Berman is

       7    still at Kekst & Company?  How did you find

       8    that out?

       9         A    He and I are personal friends,

      10    so -- and I worked with him after that time

      11    and for him after that time.

      12         Q    When did you work with him and for

      13    him after that time?

      14         A    In sequential order I worked --

      15    following the Wofford campaign he offered me

      16    a job to work on the Clinton campaign, the

      17    Clinton primary campaign in 1992, and -- and

      18    then at some point in 1993 he came to

      19    Democratic National Committee and I worked

      20    with him there.

      21         Q    What job did he offer you to do on

      22    the Clinton primary campaign in 1992?


       1         A    It was a research position.

       2         Q    And what was his position on that

       3    primary campaign?  Did he have a title?

       4         A    Research director.

       5         Q    Now, during the Wofford campaign I

       6    take it that the campaign employed private

       7    detectives?

       8         A    I'm not aware of that.  I can't

       9    answer for the entire campaign, but I'm not

      10    aware of anything personally.

      11         Q    Did you ever have access to

      12    personnel files of Governor Thornberg during

      13    that campaign?

      14         A    No, no, certainly not, and I wasn't

      15    working in research, but, no, I'm not aware

      16    of any such information.

      17         Q    Well, I take it you struck up a

      18    friendship with Mr. Berman on that initial

      19    campaign with Senator Wofford?

      20         A    I knew him.  I didn't actually

      21    strike up a friendship with him.  It was more

      22    through Zack, who I had lived with, that I


       1    got to know and I think he's the one that

       2    convinced Eric to hire me.  I did not know

       3    him very well.

       4         Q    Are you aware that Governor

       5    Thornberg press secretary has gone to prison

       6    for drug offenses?

       7         A    I'm not.

       8         Q    Did you ever hear that?

       9         A    I have no recollection of that.

      10         Q    Do you know whether on that

      11    campaign, that senatorial campaign with

      12    Senator Wofford in 1991, research was done

      13    into the drug history of Governor Thornberg

      14    press secretary?

      15         A    I have no recollection of that as

      16    an issue.

      17         Q    How did you get your job with

      18    Berman specifically --

      19         A    I --

      20              MS. GILES:  Which job?

      21              THE WITNESS:  Yeah, I'm sorry.

      22              BY MR. KLAYMAN:


       1         Q    The one on the primary presidential

       2    campaign when you became an opposition

       3    researcher, correct?

       4         A    Correct, for that campaign, that's

       5    correct.

       6         Q    Correct.

       7         A    My best recollection is that I

       8    expressed at a social occasion -- expressed

       9    an interest to Eric Berman shortly after

      10    he -- I had heard that he had been hired as

      11    the research director and that he called me

      12    like the day after Christmas or something of

      13    1992 -- no, yeah -- of 1991 -- I'm sorry --

      14    and offered me a position.

      15         Q    Whose party was it that you

      16    attended?

      17         A    I have no recollection.

      18         Q    Where was the party?

      19         A    It was on Capitol Hill at a -- my

      20    best recollection is that it was on Capitol

      21    Hill at a -- I don't know -- a burger --

      22    burger joint.  It wasn't a party for someone.


       1    It was just some people got together socially

       2    to have a hamburger and a beer.

       3         Q    Do you remember who was there?

       4         A    I don't.

       5         Q    Did Berman call you or did you call

       6    Berman at the --

       7         A    On what occasion?  I'm sorry.

       8         Q    After you saw him at the burger

       9    joint and expressed an interest.  He called

      10    you I take it?

      11         A    He called me, as I said, my

      12    recollection is that it was just after the

      13    Christmas holiday.

      14         Q    And what, if anything, did he tell

      15    you that he was interested in hiring you for?

      16         A    To be part of the research team

      17    to -- I mean that's it, to be -- work with

      18    him on research.

      19         Q    Why did you express an interest to

      20    work on opposition research when you saw him

      21    at the burger joint?

      22              MS. GILES:  Objection.  Assumes


       1    facts not in evidence.

       2              MR. KLAYMAN:  He just said he

       3    expressed an interest.  I'm trying to find

       4    out why.

       5              THE WITNESS:  My best recollection

       6    is that I was following the Wofford campaign

       7    trying to find, you know, what my next job

       8    was going to be and that while I had had

       9    other offers to do fund raising work, that

      10    I -- I was not interested in doing more fund

      11    raising work and that this seemed like

      12    something that allowed me to do more -- to

      13    learn more substantively about issues and

      14    what was going on in the campaign.  It seemed

      15    hike a good opportunity.

      16              BY MR. KLAYMAN:

      17         Q    I take it you had learned what

      18    opposition researchers do before you had

      19    asked Mr. Berman for a possible position?

      20    You had some understanding as to what they

      21    do?

      22         A    I had some understanding of


       1    research on a campaign, yes, certainly, from

       2    having lived with, you know, a guy who was

       3    doing that kind of work.

       4         Q    And what was your understanding up

       5    to seeing Mr. Berman at the burger place as

       6    to what opposition researchers do?

       7         A    Work a lot of long hours and, you

       8    know, read -- read public press clips and

       9    whatnot and voting records and try to

      10    organize that information in a useful way so

      11    that during campaign as those issues come up,

      12    you know, the campaign is able to respond to

      13    those issues based on comparing public

      14    records.

      15         Q    You had also learned that

      16    opposition researchers will take information

      17    from whatever source, correct?  It wasn't

      18    just limited to public sources?

      19         A    I -- no, I had not had any --

      20    you're asking me about the period of when

      21    I -- from the time I asked Eric.

      22         Q    Up to the point you approached


       1    Mr. Berman at the burger place.

       2         A    No, I had very limited knowledge of

       3    what it was other than they worked a lot of

       4    hours and they were doing, you know,

       5    organizing information about people's public

       6    records.

       7         Q    But up that point in time no one

       8    had ever told you that they had refused

       9    information from a nonpublic source doing

      10    opposition research, correct?

      11         A    Could you restate the question?

      12         Q    I want to know whether up to the

      13    point in time that you talked to Mr. Berman

      14    at the burger place anyone had ever told you

      15    opposition researchers are prohibited from

      16    getting information other than as public?

      17    Did anyone ever say that to you?

      18         A    In that time period, no.  I guess

      19    I -- I don't remember that.  I knew very

      20    little about it at all.  I knew very little

      21    about it at all and so had anyone ever said

      22    that to me, no, I don't believe so.


       1         Q    Now, when you talked to Mr. Berman,

       2    he called you at your home?  Is that how it

       3    happened?

       4         A    When?  Are you talking about the --

       5         Q    After you saw him at the burger

       6    place and he contacted you, he called you at

       7    home?

       8         A    Yes, he called me at home in

       9    Connecticut.

      10         Q    You had given him your home number?

      11         A    I believe so.  I must have or that

      12    he got it some other way.

      13         Q    And what did he tell you

      14    specifically he wanted you to be considered

      15    for?  What was the position to entail?

      16         A    I -- my recollection is that it was

      17    a fairly brief conversation.  It was okay.

      18    When can you get down here was how he -- what

      19    he said to me I believe.  And I said -- you

      20    know, I was surprised. You're kidding, I got

      21    the job kind of thing.  And it was a not a

      22    very -- the extent of the conversation, to my


       1    recollection, was how quickly can you get

       2    down here and my having -- my saying not

       3    until after the new year.  It was -- it was a

       4    brief conversation.

       5         Q    I take it he told you what he

       6    wanted you to do?

       7         A    I mean my -- I don't remember that

       8    we got into any discussion about it other

       9    than that I was going to be like one of the

      10    team of three people that were going to be

      11    working on research.

      12         Q    Who did he say the other two were

      13    going to be?

      14         A    Himself and myself and Zack

      15    Silverstein.

      16         Q    And then I take it you finally came

      17    down to Washington, D.C., for that job?

      18         A    Correct.

      19         Q    And did there come a point in time

      20    when Mr. Berman or anyone else sat you down

      21    and said here's what we want you to do as an

      22    opposition researcher for the Clinton primary


       1    campaign?

       2         A    Sure.  I mean to the extent that I

       3    showed up for work whatever morning it was,

       4    January 2nd or 3rd or 4th or something like

       5    that, and didn't know what I was doing, I'm

       6    sure there was those kinds of conversations.

       7         Q    And where did you show up for work?

       8         A    It was F Street office.  I don't

       9    remember the exact address, but it was F

      10    Street, downtown.

      11         Q    Did you become aware as to who ran

      12    that office for the Clinton primary campaign?

      13    Is that the headquarters?

      14         A    It was a D.C. -- sort of a smaller

      15    D.C. headquarters and I don't know that I

      16    recall who ran the entire office.  It was --

      17    it -- it changed quite a bit.  I mean there

      18    were not very many people when I first got

      19    there.

      20         Q    I take it that someone sat you down

      21    and told you what your job responsibilities

      22    were at some point, correct?


       1         A    Yeah, I'm sure.

       2         Q    Who did and what did they tell you?

       3         A    I believe, you know, it was Eric

       4    and Zack both and to my recollection it was

       5    not all that extensive.  It was, basically,

       6    there are debates coming up and we don't have

       7    very much time to attempt to generate some

       8    type of public record on the five people or

       9    whatever number of people there were that

      10    were going to be in the democratic primaries.

      11    And I was -- I sat, you know, next to Zack

      12    and I -- you know, they gave me a stack of

      13    paper and said -- asked me if you have any

      14    questions, but, you're, basically -- you

      15    know, we're looking to fill in people's

      16    public records on these 10 issues and here's

      17    a stack of voting records asking me different

      18    questions.  I mean it was that -- that's my

      19    best recollection of how it happened.  And

      20    that there was then a lot of consulting on my

      21    part with people to try to figure out what

      22    was going on.


       1         Q    Were you advised at that point or

       2    any point later that the Clinton primary

       3    campaign had hired private investigators or

       4    detectives to look into certain women that

       5    the President was alleged to have involvement

       6    with, the then Governor Clinton?

       7         A    I'm not aware at any point of my

       8    work for the Clinton campaign that there was

       9    any discussion of private investigators.

      10         Q    Did you ever have any contact with

      11    Betsy Wright?

      12         A    I wouldn't completely rule it out,

      13    but I honestly believe the answer is no, I

      14    don't remember having had any.

      15         Q    During the primary campaign I take

      16    it you got to know James Carville and Paul

      17    Begala better?

      18         A    To some extent, yes.

      19         Q    What contact did you have with

      20    them?

      21         A    My conversations with them were, I

      22    think, fairly limited.  They tended to deal


       1    more with the director of the office.  But

       2    I'm sure that on occasion there was a phone

       3    line that we had that was sort of designated

       4    for calls from Governor Clinton's campaign

       5    plane or something like that, that no one

       6    else had that number.  So if that phone rang

       7    and Eric wasn't in the office or Zack wasn't

       8    in the office, I would answer it.  So I'm

       9    sure that I had occasions where they would

      10    call and I would answer it.

      11         Q    I take it on occasion that you

      12    would discuss the opposition research that

      13    you were conducting on the five democrat

      14    primary opponents with Mr. Carville or

      15    Mr. Begala?

      16         A    Just to be clear, I myself only did

      17    any -- research on -- on one that -- you

      18    know, I think I only did one candidate.

      19         Q    Which one?

      20         A    Senator Kerry, whom I have a great

      21    deal of respect.

      22         Q    Bob Kerry?


       1         A    Correct.

       2         Q    From Nebraska?

       3         A    Correct.

       4         Q    And you were assigned to Senator

       5    Kerry?

       6         A    Correct.

       7         Q    Who assigned you to Senator Kerry?

       8         A    I couldn't say for sure.  I assume

       9    it was Eric Berman, as he was my boss.

      10         Q    What were you asked to do to

      11    research Senator Kerry?

      12         A    As I described it, I was told that

      13    there were 10 or so issues that were going to

      14    come up that I was to go through.  It was a

      15    very rudimentary operation at that point and

      16    we had stacks of -- of like CQ votes.  So I

      17    was told to try to go through and pull out

      18    votes that I thought was of note of these 10

      19    topics and then to try write those to try to

      20    make, you know, a one pager of votes that I

      21    thought were interesting on those 10 or 12

      22    public issues.


       1         Q    Were you asked to research Senator

       2    Kerry's personal background?

       3         A    No, sir.

       4         Q    Who was asked to research Senator

       5    Kerry's personal background?

       6         A    To my knowledge, no one was asked

       7    to research.

       8         Q    You are aware that research was

       9    conducted on the personal backgrounds of some

      10    of the democrat candidates that were opposing

      11    Governor Clinton?

      12         A    I -- honestly I don't know what you

      13    mean by that, so if you could explain what

      14    you mean.  I'm not aware of that, but --

      15         Q    You are aware that research was

      16    done on Governor Jerry Brown's personal

      17    background, are you not, during that Governor

      18    Clinton primary campaign in 1992?

      19         A    I don't know of any research on his

      20    personal life that was done by the Clinton

      21    campaign, no.

      22         Q    Did you ever visit Nebraska during


       1    the period that you were working on the

       2    primary campaign?

       3         A    No, sir.

       4         Q    Did you ever speak with anybody in

       5    Nebraska?

       6         A    No, not to the best of my

       7    recollection.

       8         Q    Who was assigned to research

       9    Governor Jerry Brown's background?  I'm not

      10    talking necessarily personal, but just to do

      11    research concerning Governor Jerry Brown.

      12         A    I -- I don't recall honestly and I

      13    don't -- and the bottom line is I don't

      14    believe he was someone that was -- you know,

      15    in a limited amount of time, limited

      16    resources, I don't recall that anyone --

      17         Q    Would it have been Mr. Silverstein

      18    that would have been assigned in the ordinary

      19    course?

      20         A    I can't -- no.  Again, I have

      21    no recollection of anyone having been

      22    assigned him.


       1         Q    You are aware that there was an

       2    issue during the primary campaign about

       3    allegations the Governor Jerry Brown had used

       4    drugs or someone that lived in his house had

       5    used drugs?

       6         A    I remember that as something that

       7    was written about, yes.

       8         Q    Who researched that in the Clinton

       9    campaign?

      10         A    Again, I have -- I don't recall

      11    that anyone was researching Jerry Brown on

      12    the campaign.  I mean I'm not saying that it

      13    didn't happen at some point, but my

      14    recollection is that he was not someone, with

      15    a limited amount of time and resources, that

      16    we had as a starting-out research operation.

      17    He was not something that we focused on is my

      18    best recollection.

      19         Q    Who did the primary campaign

      20    consider to be the biggest threat to

      21    receiving the nomination for Governor

      22    Clinton?


       1         A    I can't speak for the campaign.

       2         Q    Based on your knowledge.  I'm not

       3    asking you to speak --

       4         A    No, I can -- honestly I don't -- I

       5    remember that I had -- that I was assigned

       6    Governor Kerry -- I mean Senator Kerry and

       7    I -- I can't recall who else, five years ago

       8    who was assigned to who.  I don't recall.

       9    Except that I think somebody had Harkin,

      10    Senator Harkin, and I just -- I don't

      11    remember the rest of it.

      12         Q    Were there others in the Clinton

      13    campaign in addition to Mr. Berman, yourself

      14    and Mr. Silverstein, that dealt with

      15    opposition research or gathering information

      16    about adversaries?  In other words, you

      17    worked in the F Street office, I take it, the

      18    three of you, correct?

      19         A    Correct.

      20         Q    Were there others in other offices

      21    that were doing those types of things?

      22              MS. GILES:  Object to the term


       1    "adversaries."  Can you clarify what you mean

       2    by that?  The political opponents.

       3              MR. KLAYMAN:  Political

       4    adversaries, yes.

       5              THE WITNESS:  Well, as I described

       6    it, I did research on the four or five

       7    primary opponents or I did personally

       8    research on one of them and that was what our

       9    office was doing and I am not aware of -- I'm

      10    not aware of another office that was doing

      11    similar work, no.

      12              BY MR. KLAYMAN:

      13         Q    We're going to go through your

      14    history just to lay a foundation here, as

      15    lawyers say.  How long have you been involved

      16    in matters dealing with politics or

      17    government?  Since you graduated from

      18    college?

      19         A    Since I graduated from college, so

      20    it's been my only paying jobs since 1991,

      21    Summer of 1991.

      22         Q    So that's seven years?


       1         A    Sure.

       2         Q    Now, you are aware that in politics

       3    campaigns do try to dig up dirt on opponents,

       4    correct?

       5         A    I would ask you to define what you

       6    mean by dig up dirt.

       7         Q    Negative information about the

       8    opponent.

       9         A    Again, I would -- I would say

      10    that -- I can tell you what I've done and

      11    what I was asked to do as an opposition

      12    researcher on a campaign staff, which was,

      13    you know, organizing and making easy to read

      14    and understand people's public records, and

      15    that's -- that was what I did, yes.

      16         Q    Are you saying that during your

      17    experience in seven years you're completely

      18    unaware that political campaigns try to get

      19    negative information about their perceived

      20    adversaries?

      21         A    No, what I'm saying is that what

      22    I -- what I've done -- are you asking me or


       1    are you asking this too, for generally

       2    campaigns?

       3         Q    I'm asking you based an your

       4    knowledge.

       5              You are aware that in political

       6    campaigns adversaries try to dig up negative

       7    information about their opponents, correct?

       8         A    I guess I'm just -- I would like

       9    you to characterize negative, what you mean

      10    by negative.

      11         Q    I'm just talking with you straight

      12    up here.

      13         A    Right.

      14         Q    In simple terms.

      15         A    Sure.

      16         Q    Before this deposition today,

      17    Mr. Janenda, did you meet with any lawyers?

      18         A    Yeah.

      19         Q    Who did you meet with?

      20         A    My two counsels that are sitting

      21    here.

      22         Q    Who are your two counsel?


       1         A    Sally Paxton and --

       2              MS. GILES:  Allison Giles.

       3              BY MR. KLAYMAN:

       4         Q    Allison Giles.  In what capacity

       5    is --

       6         A    And, I'm sorry.  To be fully

       7    honest, I also had a very brief conversation

       8    with another attorney in the White House

       9    counsel's office.

      10         Q    Who was that?

      11         A    Buzz Waitzkin.

      12         Q    Buzz Waitzkin.  How do I spell it?

      13         A    I'd be guessing, W-A-I-T-Z-K-I-N.

      14    That's a guess.

      15         Q    In what capacity is Ms. Paxton

      16    representing you here today?

      17              MS. GILES:  Objection.  He's not a

      18    lawyer. He's not really qualified to identify

      19    what her role is.

      20              BY MR. KLAYMAN:

      21         Q    Is she representing you personally,

      22    Ms. Paxton?


       1              MS. GILES:  Ms. Paxton's role as

       2    the White House attorney --

       3              MR. KLAYMAN:  Wait, wait.  I don't

       4    want her testimony.  I want to know what he

       5    knows.  We have a motion for sanctions

       6    pending on giving testimony.  I hope that you

       7    would not do it.

       8              BY MR. KLAYMAN:

       9         Q    What role is Ms. Paxton here today?

      10    Is she your personal attorney?

      11              MS. GILES:  If you know.

      12              THE WITNESS:  As far as I know, she

      13    is a White House attorney and Ms. Giles is a

      14    Department of Justice attorney.

      15              BY MR. KLAYMAN:

      16         Q    Did either of them identify to you

      17    what capacity they're representing you?

      18              MS. GILES:  Objection.  The witness

      19    is instructed not to answer any substance of

      20    the conversations he had with --

      21              BY MR. KLAYMAN:

      22         Q    I'm not asking for what was


       1    actually said.  I'm just was wondering if

       2    they've told you what capacity they consider

       3    to be here on your behalf today.

       4              MS. GILES:  Well, that is

       5    substance.  What we've said to him is

       6    privileged and I'm instructing him not to

       7    answer.

       8              MR. KLAYMAN:  I'm just identifying

       9    whether any such communication was made.  I'm

      10    not asking for the actual communication.

      11              MS. GILES:  But it does reflect the

      12    actual communication.  Whether something was

      13    said reflects the substance of our

      14    conversation and I'm instructing the witness

      15    not to answer.

      16              MR. KLAYMAN:  It does not.  It does

      17    not.  And we've been through that.  I would

      18    have hoped you would have had a chance to

      19    read some of the citations that we put in our

      20    briefs by now.

      21              But we're entitled to ask whether

      22    or not there was communication on the issue


       1    of the capacity of the representation.  I'm

       2    not asking you for anything that you learned

       3    from your counsel in terms of what was that

       4    capacity, although I think I'm entitled to

       5    ask that, too, but that's not this question

       6    right now.

       7              MS. GILES:  I'm instructing the

       8    witness not to answer.

       9              MR. KLAYMAN:  Certify it.

      10              BY MR. KLAYMAN:

      11         Q    I'm not talking about anything that

      12    may have occurred by virtue of the

      13    conversation with counsel.  To the best of

      14    your knowledge, do you have personal counsel

      15    here today?

      16         A    No, sir.

      17         Q    You don't?

      18         A    I just answered your question to

      19    the best of my knowledge as a nonlawyer.

      20         Q    Now --

      21              MS. GILES:  And I will clarify for

      22    the record that I am representing Mr. Janenda


       1    in his personnel capacity as well as an EOP

       2    employee.

       3              MR. KLAYMAN:  I would ask you to

       4    clarify for the record what is the legal

       5    basis for the Justice Department to be

       6    expending resources on this individual in a

       7    personal capacity.

       8              MS. GILES:  I'm not under oath.

       9    I'm not here to answer questions.  I'm just

      10    making it clear I'm representing Mr. Janenda

      11    in both his capacities.

      12              BY MR. KLAYMAN:

      13         Q    Now, did you meet with Ms. Paxton

      14    in the presence of others when you met with

      15    her?

      16         A    Only Ms. Giles, Ms. Giles and on

      17    one occasion I believe with also the two of

      18    them and Glen Weiner.

      19         Q    So you had one meeting with just

      20    Ms. Giles and Ms. Paxton?

      21         A    Are you asking me --

      22         Q    Yes.  The first meeting was with


       1    Ms. Giles and Ms. Paxton?

       2         A    That's -- I'm a little confused

       3    after a week of all of this, but to the best

       4    of my recollection, my first meeting was -- I

       5    don't know.  I can't put the order of it

       6    together.

       7         Q    Roughly speaking?

       8         A    I would hate to guess.

       9         Q    Within the last week --

      10         A    I've had meetings with both of them

      11    together on a couple of occasions since I was

      12    notified.

      13         Q    Was anybody else present during

      14    those meeting besides Ms. Giles and Ms.

      15    Paxton?

      16         A    On one occasion, to the best of my

      17    recollection, one occasion was also Glen

      18    Weiner.

      19         Q    Are you saying there were three

      20    meetings? How many meetings were there in

      21    preparation for this deposition?

      22         A    Maybe four, something like that,


       1    four.

       2         Q    And in all but one of those

       3    meetings it was Ms. Paxton and Mr. Giles that

       4    was present?

       5         A    That is the best of my

       6    recollection.

       7         Q    And all of these four meetings

       8    occurred within the last week, week or so?

       9         A    Correct.

      10         Q    And how long did each of these

      11    meetings last?  Let's start with the first

      12    meeting.

      13         A    It would be better giving you a

      14    ballpark.

      15         Q    Just give me a ballpark?

      16         A    For all four?

      17         Q    Give me a ballpark for all four.

      18         A    12, 12 hours, something like that.

      19         Q    How long was the meeting, roughly

      20    speaking, when Mr. Weiner was there?

      21         A    I honestly would be guessing.  My

      22    recollection is it was brief.


       1         Q    I don't know what brief means.

       2    Roughly speaking?

       3         A    Brief, 15 minutes, half an hour,

       4    something like that.  That's to the best of

       5    my recollection.  And, again, I'm -- at this

       6    point I'm guessing.  That's the best of my

       7    recollection.

       8              MR. KLAYMAN:  I'll show you what I

       9    will ask the court reporter to mark as

      10    Exhibit 1.

      11                   (Janenda Deposition Exhibit

      12                   No. 1 was marked for

      13                   identification.)

      14              BY MR. KLAYMAN:

      15         Q    Have you ever seen Exhibit 1

      16    before, Mr. Janenda?

      17         A    Not having had a chance to look at

      18    it, from glancing at the cover it appears to

      19    be whatever you served on me last week.

      20         Q    You can take a look at it.

      21         A    As far as I can tell, it appears to

      22    be the same thing you served on me last week.


       1         Q    At any of these meetings did you go

       2    through Exhibit 1 with any of your counsel?

       3              MS. GILES:  Objection.  I mean he's

       4    free to talk about what documents he reviewed

       5    before the deposition, but not specifically

       6    what documents you reviewed with counsel.

       7              MR. KLAYMAN:  No, I asked whether

       8    you reviewed Exhibit 1 with counsel and he's

       9    not --

      10              MS. GILES:  Objection.  He's not to

      11    discuss what documents he reviewed with

      12    counsel.  If you want to keep --

      13              MR. KLAYMAN:  I didn't ask the

      14    question, Ms. Giles.  I asked whether you

      15    went through the various requests for

      16    production of documents in Exhibit 1, not

      17    what documents you went through.

      18              MS. GILES:  This is a document, but

      19    I mean I'm going to allow him to testify

      20    whether he seen it before, went through it,

      21    but I would ask you to refrain from asking

      22    questions about what documents he looked at


       1    with counsel.

       2              BY MR. KLAYMAN:

       3         Q    I haven't not gotten to that

       4    question yet.  But I simply am asking you

       5    whether Exhibit 1, whether you reviewed the

       6    various requests for documents that are

       7    listed in Exhibit 1 with counsel during these

       8    12 hours of meetings?

       9              MS. GILES:  Objection.  If the

      10    question is whether he's seen the document

      11    before, whether he's reviewed it, I'm happy

      12    to have him answer those questions.  I would

      13    just try to steer away from what he reviewed

      14    with counsel.  That's privileged information.

      15              MR. KLAYMAN:  Are you telling

      16    me I'm not allowed to ask him whether or not

      17    he went over Exhibit 1 with you?

      18              MS. GILES:  That's correct.

      19              MR. KLAYMAN:  Certify it.

      20              MS. GILES:  Why don't you just ask

      21    whether he reviewed the document period.

      22              MR. KLAYMAN:  I'll ask the way I


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