251
1 MS. SABRIN: I object to that.
2 You've asked that question, he's explained it
3 at great length what his role is.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q How many times have you
6 communicated with Kantor over the last six
7 months?
8 A Asked and answered.
9 Q When you communicate with the
10 media, I take it you are communicating with
11 the media about the Clinton scandals, right?
12 A About what?
13 Q The Clinton scandals.
14 MS. SABRIN: Objection as to form.
15 THE WITNESS: I don't know what you
16 mean by the word "scandal."
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q You are part of the Clinton spin
19 machine. Correct?
20 A I don't know what you mean by "spin
21 machine."
22 Q The group of people that helps the
252
1 press understand the scandals in the light
2 most favorable to the Administration.
3 A Let's try to cut through all this.
4 You can characterize anything you want, as
5 you obviously will because you do. I don't
6 accept your characterization. I don't know
7 what people mean by spin machine. Different
8 people have different definitions of that.
9 I've told you what I did. I've told you in
10 considerable detail what I did. More than
11 that I don't have anything to add.
12 Q I take it that what you do when you
13 talk to the press is try to portray things in
14 the most positive light for the Clinton
15 Administration. Correct?
16 A I try to portray things accurately.
17 I think one of the things that when you're
18 dealing with the press, at least my stock in
19 trade when dealing with the press and
20 other -- with the press is to be as accurate
21 as possible and that's what I try to be.
22 Q Is one of the people that you deal
253
1 with the most in the press Al Hunt, is that
2 the guy at the Wall Street Journal?
3 A I've known Al for many years and
4 I've talked to him from time to time.
5 Q He's a close friend. Right?
6 A No, he's a friend.
7 Q During the Thompson hearings I
8 observed that Al put his arm around you
9 towards the end of those hearings. Was that
10 typified of the close relationship that the
11 two of you have?
12 A Oh, you know us old political
13 types. We're always hugging and kissing.
14 Trademark.
15 Q Do you hug everybody?
16 A Who, me?
17 Q Yeah.
18 A Most anybody I can get hold of.
19 Now, I'm going to take some exception to
20 that, Mr. Klayman.
21 Q You won't hug me, right?
22 A I doubt that I'm going to come over
254
1 there and hug you.
2 Q Thank you. I doubt that I'll let
3 you. Now, with regard to Carville, have you
4 seen him, have you had any face-to-face
5 meetings in the last six months?
6 A I don't have meetings. I mean I
7 see James every now -- you know. I can't
8 remember when I've last seen James, as a
9 matter of fact. Sometimes when I walk by the
10 Palm, a restaurant which I have little use
11 for, I look in and often James is there. So
12 in that sense I've seen him on one or two
13 occasions. I can't remember, I literally
14 can't remember when I've last seen him
15 face-to-face. We typically talk on the
16 phone.
17 Q Why do you have little use for that
18 restaurant?
19 MS. SABRIN: Objection, relevancy.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: He raised it.
21 MS. SABRIN: Just because he raised
22 it doesn't mean it's relevant.
255
1 MR. KLAYMAN: It may be important.
2 THE WITNESS: It's not.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q It's because you don't want to be
5 seen, right?
6 A What?
7 Q You don't want people to know what
8 your doing.
9 A No.
10 MS. SABRIN: Objection.
11 THE WITNESS: I tell you what I
12 don't like about the Palm. They give you too
13 much food, it costs too much, you waste a lot
14 of food there, and you can't hear.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q You're not the kind of guy that
17 revels in the limelight of Washington.
18 A I don't want to characterize that.
19 I do what I do, and you can characterize it
20 the way you want.
21 Q Now, have you discussed George's
22 comments, this Ellen Roemech comment with
256
1 anyone?
2 A I think I may have had a brief
3 conversation with Paul Begala about it, maybe
4 Rahm. But it was very brief. I didn't put
5 much weight in it because, quite frankly, I
6 didn't think George had the foggiest idea
7 what he was talking about. But that was my
8 own opinion.
9 Q Have you ever known George
10 Stephanopoulos to lie?
11 A I do not. I think George -- I have
12 a great admiration for George. I consider
13 him a very good friend. I have not known him
14 to lie. But people have different
15 interpretations, based on the same set of
16 facts, people have different interpretations.
17 In my view that was an interpretation which I
18 didn't accept.
19 Q What was the interpretation that
20 you didn't accept? What did you understand
21 he was trying to say?
22 A The transcript you read to me.
257
1 That's the only thing I can work from is the
2 transcript you read to me.
3 Q That you were aware that Ellen
4 Roemech was an East German spy that President
5 Kennedy --
6 A Well, I don't think that she was an
7 East German spy as a matter of
8 interpretation. I think that is a matter of
9 established fact.
10 Q You are aware that Robert Kennedy
11 and J. Edgar Hoover used FBI files to try to
12 get adversaries to back off and not reveal
13 their relationship?
14 A I'm aware that things like that
15 have been written. I don't know whether in
16 fact that is true, but there have been
17 authors who have written that.
18 Q But when you heard the comment that
19 George made, you clearly knew what the
20 reference was, that Roemech refers to the use
21 of FBI files, the whole scandal?
22 A I have some vague notion. I had
258
1 run across the East German spy situation, I
2 don't think I knew her name, from books that
3 I've read in the past. I think George picked
4 it up out of Pillars of Fire.
5 Q George told you that?
6 A No, he told you that.
7 Q Everything's a blur though, isn't
8 it? It's hard to tell what he told you and
9 what he testified at deposition. Correct?
10 A Things do get merged, as you can
11 appreciate.
12 Q So he may have told you that.
13 A Yeah. As I say, I don't recall
14 having a discussion with him, I already
15 testified that I don't recall having a
16 discussion with him about this; and may have,
17 but I don't recall it.
18 Q What did you discuss with Begala
19 about George's remarks?
20 A I don't know. My recollection is
21 it was, again, a short conversation. We were
22 in the White House, you're short of time and
259
1 you don't gab a lot. I think that he -- I
2 think that he was -- I think the best way to
3 characterize Paul, my impression was that he
4 was a little taken aback by George's
5 reference. As I say, I didn't put a lot of
6 weight on it and it was not a long
7 discussion, to the best of my recollection.
8 Q Begala was surprised that George
9 revealed the Ellen Roemech strategy?
10 MS. SABRIN: Objection.
11 Mischaracterizes his prior testimony.
12 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q You can respond.
15 A Do you want to repeat the question?
16 Q Begala was surprised that George
17 Stephanopoulos had revealed the Ellen Roemech
18 strategy on national television.
19 A No. I think that George, I think
20 that my impression was that Paul was taken
21 aback by George's, this assertion that you
22 read, and because he like me did not believe
260
1 there was one iota of truth in it. But as I
2 say, different people have different
3 interpretations based on the same set of
4 facts.
5 Q So Begala told you that he didn't
6 believe there was an iota of truth in what
7 George was saying.
8 A My recollection, that was certainly
9 the impression. I don't know whether he said
10 that in so many words. It was certainly the
11 impression I had.
12 Q Did Begala gesture, was there
13 something about his body movements WHICH gave
14 you that impression?
15 MS. SABRIN: Assumes facts.
16 A A little tough on the phone. It
17 was a little tough to see the body movements
18 on the phone. As you recall --
19 Q Was the intonation of his voice
20 such that led you to believe that without him
21 actually uttering the words?
22 A Mr. Klayman, look, I think you know
261
1 what getting an impression means. You're a
2 pretty savvy lawyer, you've been around the
3 world a lot. It was an impression that I was
4 left with after my discussion with Paul
5 Begala. Further than that, I can't recall.
6 Q How do you know I've been around
7 the world a lot?
8 A In the world.
9 Q Okay.
10 A Strike the word "around."
11 Q Were you following me?
12 A Indeed not.
13 Q Now, in terms of Emanuel, what did
14 you discuss with Emanuel about George's
15 statements?
16 A I think probably the same thing.
17 My best recollection is that Rahm was
18 somewhat, again, taken aback. I picked that
19 up on a phone conversation I had with him.
20 But again, it was not a lengthy conversation
21 at all.
22 Q What did he say in particular?
262
1 A I don't remember what he said in
2 particular. I can tell you an impression
3 that I had based on a conversation that I
4 think that I had with him.
5 Q Do you know what the White House
6 Research Office is?
7 A I don't.
8 Q You never heard of it?
9 A No. I worked -- well, I only know
10 the West Wing, so I don't know all the White
11 House. But from my experience in the West
12 Wing, I do not recall ever seeing a line item
13 on an organization chart called the Research
14 Office. I think there are people who work in
15 the press department who do research. What
16 they research on, I don't have the foggiest
17 idea. But I don't think there's, at least I
18 can only speak when I was there, when I was
19 at the White House there was not a department
20 designated as the research department that I
21 can recall.
22 Q Have you ever talked with or met a
263
1 Tom Janenda?
2 A I have both met him and talked with
3 him.
4 Q When did you first meet him?
5 A I met Mr. Janenda sometime in the,
6 as I recall, in the '96 campaign, but that
7 could have been beginning sometime in '95.
8 That's my best recollection.
9 Q Have you met him since he has been
10 working at the White House?
11 A I don't think I've seen Mr. Janenda
12 or talked to him, again, to the best of my
13 recollection, since he went over to the White
14 House. But I'm not positive when he went
15 over there. If you have a date, maybe that
16 would give me a better fix.
17 Q Did you ever work with Mr. Janenda
18 on a Clinton campaign? Did you ever do
19 anything directly with him or any of your
20 assistants do anything directly with him?
21 A Not that I recall. My best
22 recollection is that he was in the research
264
1 department of the Democratic National
2 Committee which -- and he worked there I
3 think, I do not think that he was the top
4 person there, and that he did research, I
5 talked to him from time to time, but very
6 infrequently.
7 Q He assisted you with doing
8 opposition research?
9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
10 MS. SABRIN: Mischaracterizes prior
11 testimony.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q You can respond.
14 A Yeah, I don't know what you mean by
15 opposition, if you want to define that. Let
16 me ask you this, since we're both lawyers,
17 maybe I can try to get a fix on this. When
18 you do research on people that you're suing,
19 is that, you call that opposition research
20 when you're doing that as a lawyer?
21 Q I'll ask the questions.
22 A Well, I'm just trying to get a fix
265
1 so I can be more helpful to you.
2 Q What kind of a fix do you need?
3 MS. SABRIN: He's trying to
4 understand the term that you're using and
5 find out what you mean by it so he can be
6 responsive to your question.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q Let's define it as doing any kind
9 of research dealing with people who are
10 critical of your candidate or your President.
11 A In virtually every campaign that
12 I've ever been associated with there is a
13 research group, sometimes the department,
14 sometimes one person, that does research on
15 the opponents, especially what issues they're
16 taking, what issues they have taken in the
17 past, whether they're inconsistent with the
18 issues they're taking now, et cetera. So if
19 that's the context you're using the word in,
20 the answer is yes.
21 Q In the various campaigns that
22 you've worked, which are many, you've
266
1 identified some of them earlier, some of
2 those campaigns have used private
3 investigators, have they not?
4 A Well, if you can jog my memory,
5 I'll be glad to think about it. I don't
6 recall, I mean there have been press reports
7 as we discussed earlier that the Clinton
8 campaign in '92 had private investigators. I
9 can't verify that. I don't know that as a
10 fact. I know what has been brooded about in
11 the press. I'm just thinking about other
12 campaigns I worked in. None of them come to
13 mind. But, again, you know, you may have
14 some specific examples you want to raise.
15 Q You worked on a campaign concerning
16 Governor Cuomo, did you not?
17 A No, I never worked on a Cuomo
18 campaign.
19 Q Are you aware that Terry Lenzner
20 worked with Governor Cuomo in one of his
21 campaigns?
22 A I'm not.
267
1 Q Are you aware that Terry Lenzner
2 investigated Governor Cuomo?
3 A I have no knowledge of that.
4 Q Are you aware of reports to that
5 effect?
6 A I'm not even sure I'm aware of
7 reports to it, about it. Maybe. I mean it
8 may have been in one of Terry's profiles, one
9 of his many profiles.
10 Q Have you ever met a private
11 investigator?
12 A Have I ever met a private
13 investigator?
14 MS. SABRIN: He's already testified
15 he met Mr. Lenzner.
16 A I've met Mr. Lenzner.
17 Q Other than Mr. Lenzner.
18 A Do you consider him a private
19 investigator?
20 Q Yes. Have you ever met anyone else
21 other than Mr. Lenzner?
22 A Jules Kroll.
268
1 Q Who?
2 A Jules Kroll.
3 Q Crow?
4 A Kroll.
5 Q How's that spelled?
6 A K-r-o-l-l.
7 Q Who is Mr. Kroll?
8 A He's a private investigator.
9 Q Where is he practicing?
10 A He's worldwide. He's international
11 in scope. But I think that his basic, he
12 works out of New York.
13 Q How did you meet him?
14 A I've known Jules for years and
15 years and years. I knew him when I was
16 fooling around in politics.
17 Q You worked with him?
18 A No. I know him as sort of an
19 acquaintance.
20 Q He's gathered some information for
21 you from time to time, hasn't he?
22 A Has he?
269
1 MS. SABRIN: You mean in a role as
2 a private investigator?
3 A No.
4 Q In any role.
5 A Not as far as I know.
6 Q You're not sure?
7 MS. SABRIN: No, that's not what he
8 said.
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q Have you ever met a Glen Weiner or
11 talked to a Glen Weiner?
12 A Boy, that name rings a bell, but I
13 can't put a fix on him at all.
14 Q He worked on some of the Clinton
15 campaigns. He worked on the Wafert campaign.
16 A If he came here and sat down I
17 wouldn't know who he is.
18 Q He works with Tom Janenda now in
19 the White House. Does that ring a bell?
20 A I mean the name rings a bell, but I
21 don't recall meeting him. I may have.
22 Q He previously worked with Carville;
270
1 does that help you ring a bell?
2 A It doesn't ring a bell.
3 Q Have you ever met an Ann Walker?
4 A I have met Ann Walker.
5 Q Who is Ann Walker?
6 A She is -- was at the time that I
7 was at the White House, I don't know whether
8 she still is, an employee of the White House
9 staff.
10 Q What does she do?
11 A She -- my best recollection is that
12 she worked in the press department and was
13 basically doing research, as a number of
14 other people did.
15 Q What type of research was she
16 doing?
17 A I have no idea. She didn't report
18 to me. She was --
19 Q She reported to Ann Lewis.
20 A Well, she worked there well before
21 Ann's advent to the White House.
22 Q Are you aware that Carville keeps a
271
1 number of files on critics of the Clinton
2 Administration? You are aware of that,
3 aren't you?
4 A If it was in his deposition, then I
5 guess I read it. James never struck me as a
6 guy that trucked with much paper. You know,
7 he's light on paper, that boy.
8 Q You're sure of that.
9 A I'm not sure of anything. I'm just
10 telling you James usually has -- I've never
11 seen him truck with paper. He's verbal.
12 Q What's truck mean to you? I mean I
13 know you previously represented the trucking
14 industry, but what does it mean in this
15 context?
16 A Oh, it's a Southern impression.
17 Q What does it mean?
18 A Fool.
19 Q Fool.
20 A Fool with.
21 Q Are you from the South?
22 A Fool with.
272
1 Q Are you from the South?
2 A I don't know how you characterize
3 the South. Do you want to define South for
4 me?
5 Q I don't know. I didn't know where
6 that expression came from.
7 A I said it was a Southern
8 expression.
9 Q Have you ever met a Brenda Costello
10 or talked to a Brenda Costello?
11 A Not to my knowledge.
12 Q Have you ever heard of Brenda
13 Costello.
14 A Not to my knowledge. I may have,
15 but it doesn't ring a bell.
16 Q You're aware that Mrs. Clinton has
17 a staff person in the White House Press
18 Research Office?
19 A I am not aware of that, but it
20 wouldn't surprise me.
21 Q Why wouldn't that surprise you?
22 A Mrs. Clinton is a highly visible,
273
1 highly public figure. She does a lot of
2 speaking. Typically the speech writers on
3 the President's side, the speech writers and
4 the Press Office rely on people to find
5 information for them. I call people who find
6 information researchers.
7 Q During your period of working at
8 the White House you worked with Mrs. Clinton
9 from time to time, did you not?
10 A I did.
11 Q In what capacity did you work with
12 her?
13 A I worked with her most closely in
14 the, with the President's health care
15 initiative.
16 Q What role, if any, did you play in
17 preparing the affidavit of Ira Magaziner that
18 was submitted to Judge Lamberth?
19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q You can respond.
22 MS. SHAPIRO: Just a moment. How
274
1 is that question relevant here, Mr. Klayman?
2 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll be happy to tell
3 you if the witness will leave the room
4 briefly.
5 THE WITNESS: Good. I wanted to
6 anyway.
7 MR. KLAYMAN: You don't interrupt
8 his testimony in the interim.
9 MS. SHAPIRO: Well, I'm not sure
10 I'm prepared to allow him to testify.
11 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, that's fine.
12 But I don't want the testimony interrupted if
13 he does. It deals with truthfulness and
14 veracity.
15 MS. SHAPIRO: Why?
16 MR. KLAYMAN: Why?
17 MS. SHAPIRO: Yes.
18 MR. KLAYMAN: There's a published
19 decision on it. I don't care to get into it
20 in any great depth, but the affidavit was
21 obviously false in whole or in part.
22 MS. SHAPIRO: Well, that's under
275
1 litigation, and I'm not going to let him
2 answer any questions about that. That's not
3 the subject of this suit and I am prepared to
4 take that to the judge right now.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: On what basis?
6 MS. SHAPIRO: The basis is that
7 it's wholly irrelevant and it's far afield
8 and we'll move for a protective order right
9 now. That's not the subject of this lawsuit
10 or anything you can even remotely relate.
11 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, we've got quite
12 a litany of your instructions, so we'll take
13 it all to the judge at the same time.
14 MS. SHAPIRO: No, I'd rather take
15 it now because that's appropriate procedure.
16 If you want to pursue this line of
17 questioning I'd like to take it now.
18 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I'm going to
19 note it on the record. That's all I'm going
20 to do.
21 MS. SHAPIRO: That's fine.
22 However, I'm not going to instruct the
276
1 witness not to answer without moving for a
2 protective order. So if you put the question
3 to him, I will move for a protective order.
4 MR. KLAYMAN: That's contrary to
5 prior procedure, and I have to proceed, and
6 I'm not going to waste time.
7 MS. SHAPIRO: Then you can save
8 that question until the end and then I'll
9 instruct him at that point. But if you ask
10 the question and I instruct him now then the
11 appropriate procedure is to move.
12 MR. KLAYMAN: We'll save it to the
13 end. We'll save it to the end. I wish you
14 were so prompt all the time, Ms. Shapiro.
15 MS. SHAPIRO: Thank you.
16 MR. KLAYMAN: Contrary to prior
17 procedures where you had no concern about
18 instructing people not to answer.
19 MS. SHAPIRO: Why don't we have the
20 witness come in.
21 MR. KLAYMAN: Including during this
22 deposition. I believe he's in the restroom.
277
1 Let's go off the record and this time will
2 not count against plaintiff.
3 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off
4 video record at 2:49.
5 (Recess)
6 (Discussion of the record)
7 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on video
8 record at 2:52.
9 MR. KLAYMAN: Ms. Shapiro, is it
10 your position that if I was to ask Mr. Ickes
11 if he played any role in preparing the
12 affidavit which was submitted to Judge
13 Lamberth of this court in the health care
14 task force litigation, that you would
15 instruct him not to answer now and
16 immediately move for protective order?
17 MS. SHAPIRO: Yes.
18 MR. KLAYMAN: What's the basis for
19 that?
20 MS. SHAPIRO: Just exactly what I
21 told you on the record before we broke.
22 MR. KLAYMAN: What is that?
278
1 MS. SHAPIRO: The basis is that it
2 has absolutely nothing to do with this suit,
3 and no possible connection to anything that's
4 been articulated as permissible discovery.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you saying that
6 if he prepared the parts of that affidavit
7 which this court found to have been false or
8 misleading, that that would have no bearing
9 on his truthfulness and veracity as a
10 witness?
11 MS. SHAPIRO: I'll tell you what I
12 said before, and that's that the matter is in
13 litigation and it's not appropriate for
14 discovery in this case and I'm not going to
15 permit questioning on it. I'm willing to go
16 to the court right now if that's the way you
17 want to proceed.
18 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, we're going to
19 hold this question until the end, and we'll
20 take under advisement whether we want to
21 pursue it right now. But I wanted your
22 position right now. Is that all you want to
279
1 say?
2 MS. SHAPIRO: I took my position.
3 MR. KLAYMAN: Is that all you want
4 to say?
5 MS. SHAPIRO: That's all I want to
6 say.
7 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't want to
8 interrupt the flow right now, but we will get
9 back to the health care task force case in
10 terms of the affidavit.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q Now just in terms of the health
13 care task force, you did testify, Mr. Ickes,
14 that you worked closely with the First Lady
15 on that issue. Correct?
16 A Yes.
17 Q What were your duties and
18 responsibilities with regard to the health
19 care task force?
20 A I was asked to help manage the
21 initiative as it was working its way through
22 the Congressional process.
280
1 Q You worked with Ira Magaziner on
2 that matter?
3 A I did.
4 Q You worked closely with him?
5 A I don't know what the word
6 "closely" means. It means different things
7 to different people. I worked with Ira
8 Magaziner. He was a key part of that
9 initiative, as you undoubtedly know. I had a
10 fairly high level role in managing the
11 initiative.
12 Q Now, I take it that that's not the
13 only thing you've worked with the First Lady
14 on.
15 A It was a thing that I worked with
16 her most on. Whether the word, I wouldn't
17 want to use the word "closely" as you've used
18 it. But I did work with her on that. She
19 was very involved in the health care
20 initiative, as I think everyone knows.
21 Q What else did you work with her on
22 while you were with the White House?
281
1 A That was basically it. I mean that
2 took the better part of nearly a year. After
3 that, after we determined and the Congress
4 determined and everybody else determined that
5 it wasn't going to move forward
6 Congressionally, we were then moving into
7 the '94 election, into the '94 elections, and
8 I was busy working with the President on
9 that.
10 Q Now, you know what the scandal
11 called Filegate is, I take it.
12 MS. SABRIN: Objection as to form.
13 THE WITNESS: I don't know if it's
14 a scandal. I know that there's a controversy
15 involving FBI --
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q Let's call it a controversy. You
18 know what the controversy is about, the 900
19 or so FBI files that came over to the White
20 House?
21 A I know in very broad outline.
22 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to the form
282
1 of that question.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q You have discussed the Filegate
4 controversy with Mrs. Clinton, haven't you?
5 A I may have. It didn't occur -- to
6 the best of my recollection, this controversy
7 did not become publicly known until mid '96,
8 mid-1996. I had some association with
9 Mrs. Clinton at that point. But as I say,
10 after the health care legislation went down,
11 I was involved in the '94 elections and this
12 didn't occur until, what, 1996, I think. I
13 was not dealing much with Mrs. Clinton at
14 that time. I'm not saying I didn't talk to
15 her about it, but I have no specific
16 recollection of talking to her about it.
17 Q What general recollection do you
18 have?
19 A I don't even have a general
20 recollection. I couldn't give you a time,
21 place, date.
22 Q You did talk with others inside the
283
1 White House about the Filegate controversy.
2 A Yes.
3 Q Who did you talk with?
4 A I think the primary people that I
5 talked to would have been Jack Quinn who was
6 then Counsel to the President, and Jane
7 Sherburne, who was Special Counsel to the
8 President. I may well have probably talked
9 to other people, but those are the two people
10 that stand out in my mind.
11 Q You talked to Jack Quinn frequently
12 and Jane Sherburne frequently about the
13 Filegate scandal?
14 A I don't think it was -- again, I
15 don't want to characterize the words frequent
16 or not. We talked a number of times about
17 it. But it was something that the White
18 House made a determination that they were not
19 going to conduct their own investigation.
20 They asked the FBI to conduct it. In my
21 recollection, it was shortly thereafter the
22 Attorney General asked the three-judge court
284
1 to expand independent counsel's jurisdiction
2 and then he took over the investigation.
3 Q You did talk about the issue of who
4 hired Craig Livingstone?
5 A That was certainly an issue that
6 was discussed a lot in the public press and,
7 to some extent, inside. I don't know if it
8 was ever resolved. We had some discussions
9 about it.
10 Q Who did you discuss it with?
11 A I think the people that, again, I
12 recall that stand out in my mind today, you
13 know, two years later, is primarily, perhaps
14 not exclusively but primarily, Jack Quinn and
15 Ms. Sherburne. Ms. Sherburne had a number of
16 people working with her at that time, and
17 they may have been in some meetings as well.
18 Q Had you ever met Craig Livingstone?
19 A I had.
20 Q When did you first meet him?
21 A I don't recall. It was sometime in
22 connection with the 1992 campaign is my best
285
1 recollection.
2 Q How did you come into contact with
3 him?
4 A He was working in the campaign, I
5 was working in the campaign and we ran into
6 each other.
7 Q What was he doing in the campaign?
8 A A good question. My impression,
9 and impression only -- first of all, I read
10 so much about Livingston since this whole
11 thing broke open it's very difficult, I'll go
12 further than that, it's impossible for me to
13 separate what I knew then with what I know
14 now, because of the merger of information
15 that I acquired subsequent to then. But my
16 impression was that he was working in the
17 campaign primarily as an advance person.
18 Q Was he the one that sometimes bore
19 the chicken outfit as Chicken George?
20 A I don't know. I never paid a lot
21 of attention to Chicken George.
22 Q Did there come a point in time when
286
1 you became aware that he was hired by the
2 White House?
3 A There came a time that I became
4 aware. When that was, I don't know.
5 Q Incidentally, have you ever been
6 deposed or put under oath on any matter
7 involving the Filegate controversy?
8 A Boy, I don't know. I'd have to ask
9 Amy, but she can't testify, so. I've been
10 deposed about so many things by so many
11 people over such long periods of time, it's
12 merged.
13 Q How many times do you think you've
14 been deposed in your life?
15 A In my life?
16 Q Yeah.
17 A Counting this, I don't know,
18 anywhere from 18 to 25 times.
19 Q In what proceedings were you
20 deposed?
21 A I couldn't for the life of me begin
22 to catalog them. There have been so many
287
1 proceedings I've been deposed beginning
2 in 1994 that, you know, Senate committee,
3 House committee, Inspectors General, people
4 who want to be Inspectors General, Grand
5 Juries, people who want to get the hell out
6 of the Grand Jury. It's just, you name it.
7 I can't think of a body I haven't been
8 before. Including now. I mean this is sort
9 of the capstone.
10 Q This is what?
11 A The capstone.
12 Q This is the capstone. This is the
13 greatest honor you've ever had in being
14 deposed, is that what you are saying?
15 A I didn't say honor, I said
16 capstone.
17 Q What is a capstone?
18 A Different people have different
19 definitions.
20 Q What's your definition?
21 A Oh, I don't know. Take it -- I
22 don't think we should clutter up the record
288
1 and the judge's time with my definition of
2 capstone.
3 Q I agree with you. But I still
4 don't know what capstone means.
5 A Then why did you ask the question?
6 Q I don't know what capstone means.
7 It bears on your intent, your state of mind
8 during this proceeding. Now, have you ever
9 been questioned about Filegate by independent
10 counsel Ken Starr's office?
11 A Not that I recall. But I will tell
12 you, Mr. Klayman, I've been asked so many
13 questions by so many different people in
14 depositions and other legal proceedings that
15 I could not testify with any degree of
16 accuracy whether I had never been asked about
17 it. I don't recall it.
18 Q Do you recall whether you have ever
19 been questioned by anyone in the House of
20 Representatives about Filegate?
21 A Same answer.
22 Q Same answer for the Senate?
289
1 A Yes.
2 Q Filegate, if it happened, if indeed
3 there was a breach of privacy, would be a
4 pretty significant controversy, wouldn't it?
5 A It would. I mean my own view is
6 that if this was done with malice
7 aforethought and wittingly and knowingly,
8 that it is outrageous. I do not know all the
9 facts. In fact, I know very few of the
10 facts. In fact, I will go so far as to say I
11 know almost none of the facts. But just
12 based on what I've read, it strikes me that
13 it was inadvertent, unfortunate. The
14 President has apologized for it; inadvertent,
15 but that nonetheless if it was a breach of
16 privacy, it should not have occurred. I
17 agree with you.
18 Q You would have therefore remembered
19 if you had been deposed or questioned, given
20 the importance of this matter, by the Senate
21 and House. It would have been something that
22 would have stuck in your mind. Correct?
290
1 MS. SABRIN: Mr. Klayman, I'd like
2 to state for the record that much of his
3 testimony is publicly available, on the
4 Internet and other places. He may have been
5 questioned. Whether it's more important or
6 more significant than Whitewater, campaign
7 finance or all the other things that you know
8 he's been questioned about, is a little bit
9 hard to judge at this point. But if you're
10 interested in what he's testified about,
11 almost all of it with the exception of
12 perhaps his testimony to the Grand Jury,
13 obviously, is out there in the public record.
14 MR. KLAYMAN: What's the point of
15 this, Ms. Sabrin? To give him testimony?
16 Certify it.
17 MS. SABRIN: Certify it.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q You would have remembered, wouldn't
20 you, if you had been deposed or questioned by
21 these two bodies, the House and the Senate?
22 A Asked and answered.
291
1 Q Certify it.
2 Did there come a point in time when
3 you became aware that Craig Livingstone had
4 gotten a job in the White House?
5 A Asked and answered.
6 MS. SABRIN: Asked and answered.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q The answer is yes, okay. What did
9 you understand he was hired as?
10 A I came to understand that he had,
11 he was involved in the security aspect of the
12 White House. My dealings with Craig were
13 very limited. He helped me -- he walked me
14 through the process to get a White House pass
15 when I first came into the White House
16 in 1993. I then left, went back to practice
17 law, came back in 1994. My recollection is
18 Craig walked me through that process also
19 in 1994. It's been characterized in the
20 press that he was in charge of security. I
21 don't have any judgment on that whatsoever.
22 I always thought the FBI -- I mean the Secret
292
1 Service was in charge of security.
2 Q In the course of your duties and
3 responsibilities as Assistant to the
4 President and Deputy Chief of Staff, did you
5 ever work with Craig Livingstone?
6 A I didn't. I worked in the same
7 complex. We were working in the White House.
8 I never worked with him. I think, and I
9 don't want to be presumptuous here in the
10 sense that you mean that, but I'm not sure
11 what you mean.
12 Q Well, in any capacity.
13 A I think, I can only answer what
14 I've answered Mr. Klayman. He worked at the
15 White House. I worked at the White House.
16 He did not report to me. He was, as far as I
17 knew, he was within the administrative
18 section of the White House which was headed
19 up by someone who reported, did not report to
20 me. So I think it's fair to say that while I
21 know he worked there, he did not report to
22 me. I could tell you almost nothing other
293
1 than what I've already told you about what he
2 did.
3 Q Did you ever have to have any
4 dealings with his office?
5 A None other than -- not to my
6 recollection other than, I mean there may be
7 a memo floating around. But I remember no
8 dealing with his office other than getting my
9 White House pass. We call it a hard pass.
10 But I think I lost a hard pass once and then
11 I had to go back to him and get a second hard
12 pass.
13 Q Do you know a Mary Anderson?
14 A Who?
15 Q Mary Anderson?
16 A I don't.
17 Q Ever heard of her?
18 A Doesn't ring a bell with me.
19 Q This was Livingstone's assistant?
20 A It doesn't ring a bell.
21 Q Anthony Marcica?
22 A I read his name in the paper.
294
1 Q Have you ever met him?
2 A Not to my knowledge.
3 Q Have you ever talked to him?
4 A Not to my knowledge.
5 Q Have you ever met or talked with
6 Gary Aldridge?
7 A Not to my knowledge.
8 Q Have you ever had occasion, did you
9 ever have occasion when you were with the
10 White House to review an FBI file?
11 A Not to my knowledge. I have no
12 recollection of reviewing an FBI file. I
13 wouldn't know one if you put it here in front
14 of me.
15 Q Have you ever reviewed your own FBI
16 file?
17 A Not to my knowledge.
18 Q Have you ever asked to review your
19 own FBI file?
20 A Not to my knowledge.
21 Q Have you ever reviewed material
22 that was covered by the Privacy Act?
295
1 MS. SABRIN: Calls for a legal
2 conclusion about the Privacy Act.
3 MR. KLAYMAN: He is a lawyer. He
4 can respond.
5 MS. SABRIN: He said he didn't have
6 any knowledge generally about the Privacy
7 Act.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: Please don't, please
9 don't ruin it. Certify this.
10 He did not testify to that.
11 MS. SABRIN: He did, too,
12 Mr. Klayman. Because you can't remember what
13 he testified to. We have been here for
14 hours.
15 MR. KLAYMAN: That's inappropriate
16 to put on the record, Ms. Sabrin. Certify
17 it. That's completely objectionable.
18 MS. SABRIN: For you to
19 mischaracterize his testimony is completely
20 objectionable.
21 MR. KLAYMAN: If he has a problem,
22 he obviously has been registering his own
296
1 objections, and he can make them. To give
2 him the testimony is inappropriate. Certify
3 it.
4 MS. SABRIN: He's entitled to have
5 his lawyer object as well.
6 MR. KLAYMAN: He's not entitled to
7 have his lawyer give him the answers.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q Did you ever have occasion to
10 review material which you understood to be
11 covered by the Privacy Act while you were at
12 the White House?
13 A I don't know what -- Mr. Klayman,
14 as Ms. Sabrin has more eloquently and more
15 forcefully said than I, I testified much
16 earlier that I am not an expert on the
17 Privacy Act. I think my testimony on the
18 record is that I had some acquaintanceships
19 with its title. Knowing those kinds of
20 statutes, I suspect that it's quite an
21 intricate statute. I wouldn't know if I was
22 looking at something that's covered by the
297
1 Privacy Act or not. It would be something
2 that I would go to the counsel's office if I
3 had a question.
4 Q Have you ever reviewed Internal
5 Revenue Service information when you were
6 with the White House?
7 A When you say Internal Revenue
8 information, what do you mean?
9 Q Anything that refers or relates to
10 the IRS.
11 A USC.
12 Q What's USC?
13 A You're a lawyer.
14 Q U.S. Code?
15 A Yeah.
16 Q Have you ever seen material
17 generated by the IRS?
18 A Yeah, my taxes. I pay them every
19 year.
20 Q No, I'm talking about when you were
21 at the White House.
22 A I paid my taxes at the White House.
298
1 You know, they made us pay. Paid it right
2 up.
3 Q You actually paid them at the White
4 House, you turned the money in right at the
5 White House.
6 A You know, it was a slight, I was
7 slightly off in my language. I paid my taxes
8 while I was working at the White House.
9 Therefore, I saw a lot of material from the
10 IRS.
11 Q Did you see anybody else's material
12 from the IRS?
13 A Not that I recall. I may have seen
14 Ms. Enright's.
15 Q Did you ever review any
16 documentation to or from the Internal Revenue
17 Service while you were at the White House?
18 A I may have. I reviewed a lot of
19 paper as Deputy Chief of Staff. I have no
20 specific recollection. Typically, that sort
21 of stuff would work its way through the
22 counsel's office and we would mercifully not
299
1 have to deal with it.
2 MS. SABRIN: Are you intending to
3 limit your questions to IRS information about
4 individuals or just IRS information in
5 general?
6 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm entitled to ask
7 my questions the way I want to ask them.
8 MS. SABRIN: I want to make sure
9 that your record is accurate and complete.
10 MR. KLAYMAN: You'll have a chance
11 to cross. That's what cross-examination is
12 for. If you have a problem with my question,
13 you can sharpen it up on cross-examination.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q While you were at the White House
16 did you ever review information from
17 personnel files?
18 A Well, again, that's a definitional
19 problem, Mr. Klayman. I don't know how you
20 define a personnel file. Did I review
21 information about people who were being
22 considered for employment at the White House?
300
1 On occasion, I did. That was not one of my
2 regular jobs, but on occasion I did.
3 Q Did you review any information from
4 people who were already employed in the White
5 House out of their personnel file?
6 A I may have. I have no specific
7 recollection or general recollection.
8 Q How would it have fallen within
9 your duties and responsibilities to look in
10 personnel files?
11 A I'm not saying I did.
12 Q But you don't rule it out.
13 A I don't rule anything out,
14 Mr. Klayman, when you're under oath, trying
15 to tell the truth. I know it's sort of funny
16 to you. You just want people to sit here and
17 tell them what you want to hear.
18 Q No disrespect intended, but when
19 you say you don't rule anything out, does
20 that mean you got to cover all bases when you
21 testify just in case you ever get tripped up
22 later?