301
1 A It means what it says, Mr. Klayman.
2 You can read English.
3 Q What does it mean?
4 A You read it, figure it out. Go to
5 the dictionary.
6 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what
7 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as
8 Exhibit 7.
9 (Ickes Deposition Exhibit No. 7
10 was marked for identification.)
11 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q Showing you Exhibit 7, have you
14 ever seen this document before?
15 A Well, as I sit here today I don't
16 have a specific recollection of it. If it
17 came from my files, I probably saw it.
18 Q Does this document look familiar to
19 you?
20 A Asked and answered.
21 Q In any way. Do you think you may
22 have seen it?
302
1 A I may have. Asked and answered,
2 Mr. Klayman. I think --
3 Q At the top of the page it says "JCS
4 Privileged." That's Jane Sherburne.
5 A Are you telling me or asking me?
6 Q Well, aren't those her initials,
7 JCS?
8 A I have no idea if they are. J and
9 S is. I don't know what her middle initial
10 is.
11 Q Jane C. Sherburne, does that ring a
12 bell?
13 A Does what ring a bell.
14 Q That her middle initial is C.
15 A No, I was not aware of Jane's
16 middle initial.
17 Q This is a memorandum, it's a matter
18 of public record at this point, Mr. Ickes,
19 prepared by Jane Sherburne. It's Task List
20 December 13th, 1994.
21 A Mmm-hmm.
22 Q That's when it was prepared.
303
1 A Okay.
2 Q I'm turning down this list. See
3 where it says a K?
4 A K on the second page?
5 Q Yeah.
6 A Yes.
7 Q Before I ask you that question,
8 Ms. Sherburne at the time was a lawyer in the
9 office of the White House Counsel. Correct?
10 A Let's see. In December of '94,
11 yes, I think Jane had returned to the White
12 House by that time.
13 Q What were her duties and
14 responsibilities in December of 1994 in the
15 White House Counsel's office?
16 A Jane headed up the unit in the
17 White House that basically focused on
18 Whitewater and related issues.
19 Q She was kind of the lawyer that
20 dealt with the Clinton controversies or
21 scandals, whatever you want to call them?
22 A As I said, she was the lawyer who
304
1 headed up the team within the White House
2 that dealt with the Whitewater and related
3 issues.
4 Q She was the point person as you
5 knew her to be in the White House Counsel's
6 office on those issues.
7 A That was her basic responsibility,
8 yes.
9 Q She was like the scandalmeister.
10 MS. SABRIN: Objection.
11 THE WITNESS: Again, I think it's
12 sort of a cheap shot to characterize things
13 that way. But if that's the way you want to
14 be, that's the way you want to be.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q I'm talking about she was the one
17 you went to in the White House Counsel's
18 office if you needed information about the
19 Clinton scandals.
20 A Asked and answered.
21 Q Now, at No. K it lists "Ickes/
22 union representation."
305
1 A Wait a minute. I'm sorry, what
2 page are you on?
3 Q Page 1.
4 A You're on Page 1, I'm sorry.
5 Q Page 1, K.
6 A Yes.
7 Q "Ickes/union representation," two
8 dots.
9 A Yes.
10 Q What was going on with regard to
11 you and union representation, if anything, in
12 around this time that would have caused
13 Ms. Sherburne to make a notation about this
14 on this document?
15 A The answer is I don't know. You'd
16 have to ask her.
17 Q There was an issue with regard to
18 your involvement with unions connected with
19 the Mafia. Correct?
20 MS. SABRIN: Objection.
21 THE WITNESS: Do you want to repeat
22 the question?
306
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q There was an issue out there, was
3 there not, about your prior involvement with
4 unions who had Mafia ties?
5 MS. SABRIN: Objection as to form.
6 THE WITNESS: There had been an
7 issue. Whether there was such an issue
8 around December of 1994, I don't know. You'd
9 have to ask Jane.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q You say you had a number of
12 conversations with her. Clearly, you must
13 have discussed this with her. Correct?
14 A I may have discussed it with her.
15 "It" meaning the whole document?
16 Q No, this issue.
17 A Oh. I have no specific
18 recollection of discussing it with her. I'm
19 not even sure I discussed the document with
20 her.
21 Q But you did discuss the issue of
22 your past relationship with union
307
1 representation. Correct?
2 A Asked and answered.
3 Q No specific recollection.
4 A Asked and answered.
5 Q Is that your answer? I don't know
6 if it's that or something else.
7 A Look at the record.
8 Q Well, will you answer?
9 A I've answered it.
10 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. What is
11 it that concerned the White House about your
12 past with union representation in and around
13 that time?
14 MS. SABRIN: Assumes facts not in
15 evidence.
16 (Witness conferred with counsel)
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q You can respond.
19 MS. SHAPIRO: Can you wait for one
20 moment please before you answer?
21 MR. KLAYMAN: Can we resume? This
22 is a little bit long for a break.
308
1 MS. SHAPIRO: Sorry, it's only a
2 couple of minutes and we're doing it for your
3 benefit to try to get as much testimony as we
4 can without having to assert any privileges.
5 I'm going to first assert a
6 relevancy objection because it's obviously
7 irrelevant. I'll allow him to answer the
8 question as to his general understanding. I
9 will not allow him to answer any
10 conversations he may remember with counsel.
11 MR. KLAYMAN: That wasn't my last
12 question. My last question was was there a
13 concern at the White House at that time about
14 your alleged mob connections?
15 MS. SABRIN: I object. That was
16 not your last question.
17 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, that is now.
18 That's my question.
19 MS. SABRIN: Object as to form and
20 that it assumes facts not in evidence.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q You can respond.
309
1 MS. SABRIN: The document you were
2 asking about referred to union
3 representation.
4 MR. KLAYMAN: Which I tied to the
5 Mafia.
6 MS. SABRIN: Yes, you tied it.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q Was there concern at the White
9 House at that time about allegations that you
10 had been connected with unions tied to the
11 Mafia?
12 A Again, to get a specific answer on
13 this you'd have to ask the author of this
14 document. I think it fair to say, however,
15 that that issue had arisen in
16 late '92/early '93. It was put to rest after
17 a very thorough investigation by a former
18 Assistant United States Attorney for the
19 Southern District and was certified, to use
20 your phrase which I don't yet know what it
21 means, by sitting -- by Federal District
22 Court Judge.
310
1 But given the issues that were
2 being raised by a number of different people
3 and organizations with respect to the
4 Clintons in particular and the White House in
5 general, the Clinton Administration, this
6 probably may have been on a list because of
7 that as a point that Jane, assuming that she
8 wrote this -- and I take your word for it; I
9 don't know whether she wrote it in fact --
10 was drawing up a list of possible issues that
11 might come up.
12 MR. KLAYMAN: Now, I'll show you
13 what I'll ask the court reporter to mark as
14 Exhibit 8.
15 (Ickes Deposition Exhibit No. 8
16 was marked for identification.)
17 BY MS. SHAPIRO:
18 Q Showing you Exhibit 8, this is an
19 article which is entitled "U.S. to probe
20 White House aide's former law firm to mob
21 ties" by Jerry Seper, Washington Times,
22 July 5th, 1994.
311
1 A Okay.
2 Q Take a look at this, Mr. Ickes, and
3 tell me if this article discusses the
4 situation as you've just described it, the
5 investigation by this former U.S. Attorney
6 which you claim cleared you of mob ties.
7 MS. SABRIN: Object on the basis of
8 relevancy.
9 A Your question?
10 Q Does this article refer to the
11 investigation by this former U.S. Attorney
12 that you claim cleared you of any involvement
13 with mob ties?
14 A The latter part does. Basically on
15 the top of Page 76 on the printout that you
16 gave me, where it talks about the
17 representation of Local 100, that is the
18 situation that I was specifically referring
19 to. As I said earlier -- and I was given a
20 completely clean bill of health in that
21 regard. As I said earlier, while our law
22 firm did represent the Teamsters, I had
312
1 little if anything to do with that
2 representation.
3 Q You have met people that you know
4 to have been in organized crime during the
5 period that you worked in that law firm.
6 Correct?
7 MS. SABRIN: I'm going to object on
8 the grounds of relevancy.
9 MR. KLAYMAN: Just laying a
10 foundation.
11 MS. SABRIN: Well, you're smearing
12 my client on this record.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not smearing him.
14 MS. SABRIN: Yes, you are. That's
15 what this is about, and I think it's an
16 improper use of the deposition process.
17 MS. SHAPIRO: I join in that
18 objection.
19 MS. SABRIN: If you are going to
20 continue, I'm going to go to the judge and
21 seek a protective order.
22 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll tell you what my
313
1 next question is.
2 MS. SABRIN: If you can tie it back
3 to this lawsuit, I'll let him answer it.
4 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll go backwards.
5 I'll go backwards.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q During the time that you were in
8 the White House and thereafter, did anyone
9 ever ask you to use any contacts or
10 relationships or anything like that that you
11 had with people in organized crime to gather
12 information?
13 MS. SABRIN: Objection, assumes
14 facts not in evidence.
15 THE WITNESS: Do you want to state
16 the question again?
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q During the time that you were with
19 the White House and thereafter, has anyone
20 ever asked you to use your contacts or
21 knowledge of or relationships with any
22 individuals in organized crime to gather
314
1 information on behalf of the Clinton
2 Administration?
3 MS. SABRIN: Same objection.
4 A No.
5 Q During the period that you were in
6 the White House and thereafter, has anyone
7 ever asked you to use any of your contacts
8 with people associated with Local 100 to do
9 favors for the Clinton Administration?
10 MS. SABRIN: Objection as to form,
11 relevancy, and assumes facts not in evidence.
12 THE WITNESS: Do you want to ask
13 the question again?
14 MR. KLAYMAN: Can you read it back.
15 (The reporter read the record as
16 requested.)
17 MS. SABRIN: Same objections.
18 THE WITNESS: I don't even know how
19 to answer this. You really are carrying this
20 to a new low. You know exactly what you're
21 doing. This is a smear job of the first
22 order. You're despicable because of it, sir.
315
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q Now, will you answer the question?
3 A The answer is no.
4 Q Now, you do know people who are in
5 organized crime, don't you?
6 MS. SABRIN: Objection.
7 THE WITNESS: Not to my knowledge.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q You do have some knowledge from
10 whatever walk of life as to what organized
11 crime does, don't you?
12 MS. SABRIN: Objection as to
13 relevancy.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q You can respond.
16 A Once you provide a definition of
17 organized crime, maybe I'll be in a position
18 to answer it.
19 Q A crime which is organized and
20 illegal.
21 A That takes in a lot of crime.
22 Q You're aware of the Gambino family;
316
1 you've heard of them, right?
2 A I've heard of them. I read a whole
3 mythology about them.
4 Q You're aware they deal in
5 racketeering?
6 A I've read that, yes.
7 Q You're aware that sometimes they do
8 things at request for people that assist
9 them?
10 MS. SABRIN: Mr. Klayman, this is
11 really way off the mark.
12 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm laying a
13 foundation.
14 MS. SABRIN: I'm going to call the
15 court right now and seek a protective order
16 if you are going to ask him any more
17 questions about the mob, which is completely
18 irrelevant to this lawsuit.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, what I want to
20 know is whether any of the people that we've
21 identified in this deposition, whether it's
22 Mr. Amodeo or whether it is people such as
317
1 Castellano and others, whether any of the
2 people or people around them were ever asked
3 during the period you worked in the White
4 House and thereafter to do anything by or on
5 behalf of the Clinton Administration.
6 A Amodeo and Castellano are
7 identified in the deposition?
8 Q I asked you questions about that
9 earlier.
10 A No, no. Your precise question, and
11 I won't bother to characterize your memory,
12 but your precise question was whether anybody
13 identified in the deposition such as
14 Castellano and Amodeo, et cetera, et cetera,
15 are they identified in the deposition and if
16 so where?
17 Q Well, let me just ask you the
18 general question. I don't care what
19 characterization you want to put on these
20 people or where they come from or what they
21 do. But did any people associated with them
22 or the people themselves, Amodeo or
318
1 Castellano, and let's add Arthur Coia in
2 there, have any of those individuals ever
3 been asked to do anything to the best of your
4 knowledge by or on behalf of the Clinton
5 Administration?
6 MS. SABRIN: I'm going to object as
7 to form and relevancy. I'm going to suspend
8 this deposition right now because I'm going
9 to call the court and ask for a protective
10 order. There is no basis for these
11 questions. You're trying to smear my client
12 and you're using this for --
13 MR. KLAYMAN: I made that in a
14 neutral context.
15 MS. SABRIN: You already identified
16 those people in your mind as mobsters.
17 MR. KLAYMAN: I said reported, I
18 said reported. He testified to that as well.
19 MS. SABRIN: He testified he didn't
20 know about their mob associations and that he
21 had never met any of them.
22 MR. KLAYMAN: I just took any
319
1 characterization out of the question, whether
2 it was reported or otherwise.
3 MS. SABRIN: Exactly.
4 MR. KLAYMAN: I just asked whether
5 any of the people in or around those people
6 were ever asked to do anything.
7 MS. SABRIN: How could the
8 recycling of unsubstantiated rumors about
9 something completely unrelated to the FBI
10 files possibly lead to any admissible,
11 relevant evidence in this case?
12 MR. KLAYMAN: Because it is
13 possible, and I'm willing to say this so we
14 can move this along, that those people may
15 have been asked to do something with regard
16 to information gathering.
17 MS. SABRIN: He's testified that to
18 his knowledge no one in the White House asked
19 him to do anything with respect to the mob to
20 pursue information about people.
21 MR. KLAYMAN: That's your
22 testimony. Certify it.
320
1 MS. SABRIN: He has testified to
2 that.
3 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
4 MS. SHAPIRO: Let's go to the judge
5 now and not waste time.
6 MR. KLAYMAN: Stop. We're going to
7 continue with our deposition, because I'm
8 through with this line of questioning. We'll
9 take it from there and we'll get a general
10 ruling.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q Now, who is it that when you were
13 at the White House, if anyone, that you ever
14 asked to gather information for the Clinton
15 Administration?
16 MS. SABRIN: Objection as to form.
17 THE WITNESS: Do you want to repeat
18 the question?
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q During the period you were at the
21 White House did you ever ask anyone outside
22 of the White House to gather information for
321
1 the Clinton information?
2 MS. SABRIN: About anything?
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q About anything.
5 A I'm sure I did.
6 Q Who was that?
7 A I don't have the slightest idea.
8 DNC, for one. DNC had a research operation.
9 We asked them. I think the campaign itself
10 had a research operation, at some point we
11 asked them to gather information. It depends
12 what the issue was. I mean there were, you
13 know, we dealt with a very broad range of
14 substantive issues in the White House, and
15 there were any number of times that I would
16 call people or have other people call people
17 who were not directly related to the White
18 House outside of the White House, which to me
19 includes the whole Federal Government outside
20 of the White House, for information.
21 Q Who, if anyone, did you ask to
22 gather information on critics of the Clinton
322
1 Administration when you were at the White
2 House?
3 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
4 MS. SABRIN: Objection as to form.
5 THE WITNESS: Why don't you define
6 a critic for me.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q Somebody who says something which
9 is negative or not positive.
10 A At any time.
11 Q At any time.
12 MS. SABRIN: About anything.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: About the Clinton
14 administration.
15 THE WITNESS: Oh, I've said
16 negative things. I can't think of a --
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q If you are in the pool, answer it
19 with yourself in the pool.
20 A Mr. Klayman, I can't think of a
21 person who has not said something critical.
22 I can't think of a person with the possible
323
1 exception, and even they have been critical,
2 of the President and the First Lady, who have
3 not said something critical about the Clinton
4 Administration. So if you're asking me, if
5 that's your question, if that's the breadth
6 of your question, the same as your question
7 when you threw Arthur Coia in, and I assume
8 you had a whole litany of other people to
9 throw in, I asked a broad range of people for
10 information about the people who were
11 critical of the Clinton Administration.
12 Q Who did you ask?
13 A I have no idea, Mr. Klayman.
14 Q Who are the top ten?
15 A I -- people in the Federal
16 Government, people at the DNC, people at the
17 Reelect, people who were dealing in
18 substantive issues, health care, tobacco, a
19 whole -- welfare, budget, a whole range of
20 people I would ask. I dare say that everyone
21 I have ever met has had some criticism of the
22 Clinton Administration. So therefore
324
1 everybody, by your definition, on this
2 wonderfully worded question which bears so
3 pointedly on the issues at hand, are critics,
4 and I asked for information.
5 Q Did you --
6 A Now, having said that, I need to
7 take a short break. Thank you very much.
8 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off
9 video record at 3:32.
10 (Recess)
11 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on video
12 record at 3:40.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: Did we have a
14 question pending when we broke?
15 (The reporter read the record as
16 requested.)
17 MR. KLAYMAN: So we had a question
18 pending.
19 MS. SABRIN: "Did you" was the
20 question.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q Have you been critical yourself?
325
1 A Yes.
2 Q What were you critical about?
3 A I have disagreed with the President
4 on several issues, death penalty for one, his
5 welfare legislation that he signed for
6 another, by way of example.
7 Q Have you disagreed with him on
8 anything with regard to the Clinton
9 controversies or scandals, any issue that you
10 find that you've been at odds with him on?
11 A With the President?
12 Q Yes.
13 A Not that I know of.
14 Q Turn to Page 2 of this Sherburne
15 memo.
16 A This is Exhibit 7?
17 Q Yes. See where it says at the
18 bottom of Page 1, Preliminaries?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Then it has "a" and then a small
21 "i"?
22 A Yes.
326
1 Q "Sustain shadow on WJC character"?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Do you know what that means?
4 A I don't. I didn't write it.
5 You'll have to ask Sherburne.
6 Q Did they ever use words in the
7 White House when you were there to put
8 shadows on people?
9 MS. SABRIN: Who is "they"?
10 MR. KLAYMAN: Anybody in the White
11 House.
12 A What do you mean by shadow?
13 Q Has there ever been the use of a
14 phraseology in the White House of to hire a
15 private detective was to shadow somebody?
16 A Not to my knowledge.
17 Q This reference says "sustain shadow
18 on WJC." You are aware that WJC refers to
19 Western Journalism Center?
20 A I guess it could.
21 Q That's the terminology. You have
22 heard that terminology in the White House,
327
1 haven't you?
2 A What terminology?
3 Q Western Journalism Center.
4 A I don't think I have. What is it?
5 Q You've never heard of the Western
6 Journalism Center?
7 A No. It sounds like a pretty august
8 organization. But I have to apologize, I
9 never heard tell of it.
10 MS. SABRIN: Mr. Klayman --
11 MR. KLAYMAN: Did they ever use the
12 word --
13 MS. SABRIN: When you read this
14 into the record before you said "sustain
15 shadow on WJC." I just want the record to be
16 clear, it says "sustain shadow on WJC
17 character."
18 MR. KLAYMAN: Yeah, I did.
19 A That could mean William Jefferson
20 Clinton, couldn't it?
21 Q I'm asking you.
22 A Beats me. You'll have to ask
328
1 Ms. Sherburne. Does the Western Journalism
2 Center have a character that could have a
3 shadow?
4 Q Did you ever hear of the center?
5 A No.
6 Q Turn to Page 3 wherein it states,
7 Roman numeral IV, "Determine how to handle
8 representation of individual White House
9 staff," and it has "outside counsel, attorney
10 fees, assertion of privileges."
11 A Wait a minute. What page are you
12 on, Mr. Klayman?
13 Q Page 3.
14 A Roman IV, you said? Roman numeral
15 IV?
16 Q Yeah. See where it says --
17 A Oh, I see, I got it. I'm sorry.
18 Q See where it says "press strategy"?
19 A Yes.
20 Q "Surrogate role"?
21 A Yes.
22 Q In the White House they did use the
329
1 word "surrogate" from time to time when you
2 were there, didn't they?
3 A Yes.
4 Q What does surrogate mean?
5 A Surrogate technically means,
6 obviously depending upon -- nothing's
7 obvious. Depending upon the context, and the
8 context would be very important in my view,
9 surrogate is typically someone who would
10 stand in for either the President or
11 Mrs. Clinton or Mrs. Gore or the vice
12 President.
13 Q Could surrogate also refer to
14 people outside of the White House that would
15 do things on behalf of the White House?
16 A That could mean that also, yes. I
17 don't know what context it's used here, but
18 it certainly could mean that.
19 Q Such as people like yourself right
20 now who are out liaising with the press on
21 behalf of the White House.
22 A Yes, and getting beaten over the
330
1 head by such as you.
2 Q I haven't beaten you over the head,
3 have I?
4 A Well, you stopped the hammering.
5 Q I think you can take care of
6 yourself.
7 A Well, I wouldn't count on that.
8 But you're right, it could mean either, my
9 definition or your definition.
10 Q You are effectively a surrogate
11 now, aren't you, under that definition?
12 A Well, depending on how it's
13 defined, one could call me a surrogate.
14 Q Then it says under "i," "Security/
15 Livingstone issues."
16 A Yes.
17 Q Do you know what Ms. Sherburne
18 meant by that back in December of 1994?
19 A '94, I do not know.
20 Q Does this refresh your recollection
21 as to whether or not the issue of FBI files
22 arose in December of 1994 in the White House,
331
1 whether it was ever discussed?
2 A I don't recall it being discussed.
3 I'm not saying it couldn't have been. Jane
4 had a pretty broad purview. I don't recall
5 FBI files being discussed.
6 Q Do you recall security issues and
7 Craig Livingstone being discussed at that
8 time?
9 A I don't. It somewhat surprises me
10 that it's there, but I don't.
11 Q When you were at the White House
12 were there regular meetings where the Clinton
13 controversies or scandals, whatever you want
14 to call them, were discussed?
15 A There were, depending upon the time
16 period you're discussing.
17 Q In and around this time period were
18 there meetings being held?
19 A This time period --
20 Q December of '94?
21 A Being December of '94, my
22 understanding is that Jane Sherburne and her
332
1 group met on a regular, i.e., daily basis. I
2 would meet with her on a fairly regular
3 basis. I can't think of any other regular
4 meetings in that sense, unless within the
5 counsel's office, and I was not involved with
6 the counsel's office outside of working with
7 Ms. Sherburne and there may have been regular
8 meetings there.
9 Q Who would meet regularly with
10 Ms. Sherburne?
11 A Her staff. She had a staff, at
12 this time I don't know how large her staff
13 was. It grew in size. But I think initially
14 it was quite a small staff. She may have
15 been meeting with herself, for all I know, at
16 that time.
17 Q Who were they?
18 A The people that I know and the
19 people that I dealt with would have included
20 Jane, obviously. Mark Fabiani started
21 working at the White House I think at a date
22 later than the date of this document.
333
1 There's a person by the name of Mr. Fishman
2 who worked there for a period of time. There
3 were others whose names escape me, but there
4 was a unit of people. John Yarowsky, as a
5 matter of fact, worked in that unit for a
6 while. There were some others.
7 Q Cheryl Mills?
8 A Cheryl Mills did not work in that
9 unit. She had, my understanding is that she
10 had some interaction with the unit. But she
11 was, I think at that point Ms. Mills was
12 Associate Counsel. She subsequently has
13 become Deputy Counsel is my understanding.
14 Q Lanny Brewer?
15 A Lanny Brewer did not, as far as I
16 know, begin working at the White House until
17 after I left in January of '97.
18 Q In and around this time period, was
19 there any discussion that you know of about
20 Privacy Act materials and Craig Livingstone
21 in general?
22 A I don't recall any specific or
334
1 general discussion about that. I mean
2 Privacy Act may have been mentioned. I have
3 no specific recollection about it. But the
4 Livingstone thing is a mystery to me.
5 Q It says under No. 2, "Review
6 Livingstone file." Do you know what they're
7 referring to, the Livingstone file?
8 A I don't know.
9 Q Then it says "Consult with Randy
10 Turk." Do you know Randy Turk? Have you
11 ever met him, talked to him?
12 A The name rings a bell. I may well
13 have met him. I can't identify him right
14 now.
15 Q Do you know who he is in terms of
16 his position?
17 A No.
18 Q If I told you that he was a lawyer
19 with Craig Livingstone, would that ring a
20 bell?
21 A On some things I'd believe almost
22 anything you said.
335
1 Q What do you mean by that?
2 A Just what I said. It's plain
3 English. You can look it up.
4 Q On some things you would believe
5 almost anything I said. What's your line of
6 demarcation?
7 A Well, based on the questions and
8 some of the characterizations that you have
9 laid out here during this deposition, I do
10 have some questions about sort of where
11 you're coming from. But that's okay, it's
12 your province.
13 Q "Interview Livingstone," do you
14 know what that was in reference to?
15 A I don't know.
16 Q Turn to Page 4, No. iii.
17 A Roman III or --
18 Q Little 3, yeah, Roman iii.
19 A Triple little "i," is that what you
20 are referring to.
21 Q Right, triple little "i."
22 A Okay.
336
1 Q "Chain of custody re transfer of
2 Clinton personnel files."
3 MS. SABRIN: Personal files, not
4 personnel.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: Personal files.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q In and around this period of time
8 what was discussed about the chain of custody
9 concerning the transfer of Clinton personnel
10 files -- personal files.
11 A I couldn't tell you. I think,
12 Mr. Klayman, if you look at this list, this
13 strikes me -- and, again, Jane would
14 obviously be the best source on this. But if
15 you want to pummel me about it, I'll try my
16 best at it. Is a list, it looks to me as if
17 it was -- as if it were an all-inclusive list
18 of anything that she thought at the time she
19 wrote it that could arise. That does not
20 necessarily mean that any one of these
21 particular items was a subject of controversy
22 at the time that she drafted the memo,
337
1 assuming that she drafted it.
2 Q Well, what I'm asking, is there --
3 are there in the White House, or at least
4 when you were there, files known as Clinton's
5 personal files?
6 A Not that I know of, but it wouldn't
7 surprise me. I mean this is, after all,
8 where he lives and where he works. It's the
9 only house he has. It's the only office he
10 has. Just as I kept personal files in my
11 office, it wouldn't surprise me that he had
12 personal files in his office.
13 Q Well, it says Clinton. It doesn't
14 say Bill. It could be the reference is to
15 Hillary Clinton.
16 A It could be Chelsea. It could be
17 Socks, assuming Socks had files.
18 Q Was there ever any discussion as to
19 what would be a personal file in terms of how
20 files are kept in the White House when you
21 were there or thereafter?
22 A Not that I recall. I think that
338
1 there was considerable controversy according
2 to my reading of the press about Vince Foster
3 and what was personal and what was not
4 personal, et cetera. But I don't recall any
5 specific discussion about personal files. I
6 don't even recall it being an issue at this
7 time other than what had happened in the
8 past, especially in connection with the death
9 of Mr. Foster.
10 Q Did you ever keep files on your
11 prior labor union representation in the White
12 House?
13 A In the White House.
14 Q Yeah.
15 A Not that I recall. I had some, I
16 brought a few files with me from my former
17 law firm. I don't recall -- there may have
18 been, I may have had a file on Local 100
19 because that obviously had been an issue that
20 had arisen in late '92/early '93, had been
21 cleared up to everyone's satisfaction, or
22 almost everyone's satisfaction, and I may
339
1 have brought a very small file. Other than
2 that, no.
3 Q Where is that file today?
4 A It's probably at my home.
5 Q Are there other files that you now
6 remember that are at your home?
7 MS. SABRIN: He testified earlier
8 that he kept --
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q That you kept when you were at the
11 White House? Please don't interrupt.
12 MS. SABRIN: Asked and answered.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: Please don't
14 interrupt.
15 MS. SABRIN: I'm allowed to object.
16 A What's the question?
17 Q Well, we seemed to have scored a
18 breakthrough here. You remembered a
19 particular file.
20 A Well, that, I mean I could just
21 sort of feel, you know, like that New York
22 earthquake I was talking about, just whoosh.
340
1 Enormous breakthrough, Mr. Klayman. I knew
2 you'd get there. I knew if you just kept
3 asking these questions we would achieve
4 Hallelujah land. Anyway, go ahead. They say
5 when you ask enough questions you're bound to
6 ask the right one.
7 Q Well, thank God for little things.
8 A I know, I know. I've been in your
9 position.
10 Q What other do you now remember you
11 took from the White House and you're keeping
12 at home?
13 A As I said, I've already asked and
14 answered that question, quite frankly. I
15 gave you extensive, extensive exposition
16 about files that I took home that were files
17 that I had in my office that I considered
18 personal files that I took home. Many of the
19 files I turned over to my attorney. Some of
20 them I did not, personal financial files.
21 Q Did you keep an opposition research
22 file when you were at the White House?
341
1 A Well, as you know, Mr. Klayman,
2 from prior testimony here, I don't know what
3 "opposition" means. If it means anything
4 that may be critical of the Clinton
5 Administration, then I probably have a paper
6 or two hanging around like that.
7 Q It was in a discrete file?
8 A Oh, it depends on the issue.
9 Q You took that one home, too.
10 Right?
11 A Which one?
12 MS. SABRIN: Objection to the
13 characterization of his prior testimony.
14 THE WITNESS: I didn't say I had
15 opposition in the sense that you may be using
16 that. I said if there are papers that were
17 critical of the Clinton Administration, I may
18 have some documents that are critical of the
19 Clinton Administration. But you used a very
20 broad definition of "opposition" earlier on
21 which I'm just adopting.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
342
1 Q Now, Vince Foster worked in the
2 White House Counsel's office. Correct?
3 A He did, according to my best
4 information.
5 Q You are aware that he had access to
6 FBI files. Correct?
7 A I don't know what Mr. Foster had.
8 He worked there at a time that I was not in
9 the White House.
10 Q There's no overlap between his
11 period and your period?
12 A None. Well, let me back up. I was
13 there for a very short period of time during
14 and after the Inauguration, the '92
15 Inauguration, probably no more than five or
16 six days. Then I and Ms. Enright returned to
17 New York. But we were just getting settled
18 down then and trying to figure out what floor
19 we were on.
20 Q You were, however, in the White
21 House after Mr. Foster died.
22 A Yes.
343
1 Q You were made privy to the events
2 that followed his unfortunate death.
3 A Privy, if one calls reading the
4 newspaper privy.
5 Q You are aware that his office was
6 searched after his death?
7 A I learned that from the newspaper,
8 yes. There was a lot of press about that
9 around the time of Mr. Foster's suicide.
10 Q You were kept apprised of what was
11 going on with regard to documents taken out
12 of his office?
13 A I was not.
14 MS. SABRIN: At what point in time
15 are we talking about?
16 MR. KLAYMAN: After he died.
17 A Well, after he died is a long
18 period of time. That starts the day he put a
19 bullet through his head to today. So do you
20 want to narrow it down a little bit?
21 Q No.
22 A Oh, okay. I think it's fair to say
344
1 that I learned most of what I know about
2 Mr. Foster and that very tragic situation
3 through the press. It happened, as you -- my
4 best recollection, it happened midsummer,
5 June, July of '94. I was in Mineola, in New
6 York City practicing law.
7 MS. SABRIN: '93.
8 THE WITNESS: '93, I'm sorry. I
9 stand corrected.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q Did you ever discuss Vince Foster
12 with William Kennedy?
13 A With William Kennedy? I think I
14 only discussed Mr. Foster with William
15 Kennedy in terms of their relationship in
16 Little Rock. They knew each other in Little
17 Rock. I think they worked at the same law
18 firm. That's the extent of any conversation
19 that I can recall at this point now five
20 years later about with Kennedy.
21 Q You are aware that as part of his
22 duties and responsibilities William Kennedy
345
1 reviewed FBI files from time to time?
2 A I may have been aware of that and
3 may well have forgotten it. I couldn't
4 testify to a fact right now.
5 Q You are aware that as part of
6 Mr. Foster's duties and responsibilities he,
7 too, reviewed FBI files from time to time?
8 A Same answer, same answer.
9 Q Did you ever discuss whether FBI
10 files were taken out of Foster's office with
11 anyone up to today?
12 A I may have.
13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Lacks
14 foundation.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q You can respond. Oh, you already
17 did respond. Who did you discuss it with?
18 A I don't recall. I had thousands of
19 conversations, Mr. Klayman, over the years,
20 thousands, a lot of conversations.
21 Q What FBI files were taken out of
22 Mr. Foster's office after he died?
346
1 A I don't know that any were. I
2 don't know as a fact that any were.
3 Q Do you have all the notes that you
4 took while you were at the White House in one
5 discrete place?
6 A You mean the ones I didn't throw
7 away.
8 Q The ones that are currently in
9 existence.
10 A No. They're scattered. I think my
11 attorneys have virtually all of them.
12 Q Where else would they be scattered
13 other than where you testified earlier today?
14 A Well, when you say took in the
15 White House, I took personal notes on
16 personal business. But those notes to the
17 extent I have any would be at my home. But I
18 think it's fair to say that virtually all if
19 not all of my notes, other than for what even
20 you probably would consider are personal,
21 although I don't want to put words in your
22 mouth, are at my attorney's office.
347
1 Q Do you know whether or not notes
2 concerning FBI files from Mr. Foster's office
3 were searched for prior to your deposition
4 today?
5 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, lacks
6 foundation.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q You can respond.
9 MS. SHAPIRO: Mischaracterizes his
10 testimony.
11 MS. SABRIN: I would just like to
12 state, I'll let him answer that question but
13 I just want to make sure you're clear on the
14 sequence of events here. Mr. Foster --
15 MR. KLAYMAN: Please don't --
16 MS. SABRIN: No, no, this is very
17 important because you are asking questions
18 that could confuse the record and we don't
19 want the record to be confused.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't want it
21 confused. Can we have Mr. --
22 MS. SABRIN: Mr. Foster died in the
348
1 summer of 1993 and Mr. Ickes, as he
2 testified, started working in the White House
3 in January of '94. So I just want to make
4 sure that when you ask him questions, you're
5 aware that he wasn't in the White House at
6 the period, when the events that you are
7 asking about occurred.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: I am aware of that.
9 I didn't need you to tell me because in fact
10 he just testified to that.
11 THE WITNESS: I know, but you often
12 forget what I testify to. So I don't blame
13 Amy for trying to make sure that you
14 remember.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q Did you search for documents that
17 may reflect FBI files taken out of Foster's
18 office in response to Judicial Watch's
19 subpoena?
20 A Asked and answered, Mr. Klayman.
21 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
349
1 Q Look at the bottom of Page 4.
2 A The short of it is, as I've
3 testified at least twice before earlier in
4 this overly long deposition, that I searched
5 all the files in my house and all the files
6 in my office, and that I thought were
7 remotely relevant or pertained to this
8 deposition, and I gave them to Ms. Sabrin.
9 Ms. Sabrin reviewed them and determined in
10 her view what was relevant. I didn't
11 disagree with her determination.
12 Q Look at the bottom of Page 4.
13 "Obligation to disclosing note to law
14 enforcement authorities." Do you know what
15 that reference is to?
16 A I don't. I mean you really
17 ought -- you know, you keep hammering away on
18 this document and Jane is the person,
19 Ms. Sherburne is the person. She could tell
20 you all this stuff, assuming she wrote this.
21 Q I'm entitled to ask what you know.
22 A I know you're entitled. I know
350
1 you're entitled. I know you're entitled.
2 You're entitled to keep me sitting here hour
3 after hour after lugubrious hour asking very
4 broad, basically irrelevant and, when you
5 look at the record, when we all get to look
6 at the record on the Web sight -- by the way,
7 when does it go up on the Web sight?
8 Q When would you like it to go up?
9 How's that?
10 A It's up to you.
11 Q When would you want us to do that?
12 A Anytime you feel like it.
13 Q Okay.
14 A Anytime. I was just asking you
15 when do you usually put them up.
16 Q Turn to Page 5.
17 A Could you put a "please" on the end
18 of that?
19 Q Please.
20 A Thanks. We're on Page 5.
21 Q "Chris Ruddy/center for Western
22 Journalism." Did you ever discuss Chris