1
1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA
2
-------------------------x
3 CARA LESLIE ALEXANDER :
et al., :
4 :
Plaintiffs :
5 :
v. : Civil No. 96-2123 (RCL)
6 :
FEDERAL BUREAU OF :
7 INVESTIGATION et al., :
:
8 Defendants. :
-------------------------x
9
Washington, D.C.
10
Thursday, April 16, 1998
11
12 Video deposition of
13 THOMAS D. JANENDA
14 a witness, called for examination by counsel
15 for Plaintiffs pursuant to notice and
16 agreement of counsel, beginning at
17 approximately 10:15 a.m. at the offices of
18 Judicial Watch, Inc., 501 School Street
19 Southwest, Washington, D.C., before Shari R.
20 Broussard, notary public in and for the
21 District of Columbia, when were present on
22 behalf of the respective parties:
2
1 APPEARANCES:
2 On behalf of Plaintiffs:
3 LARRY KLAYMAN, ESQUIRE
DON BOSTION, ESQUIRE
4 Judicial Watch, Inc.
501 School Street, Southwest, Suite 725
5 Washington, D.C. 20024
(202) 646-5172
6
On behalf of Defendant Executive Office
7 of the President:
8 SALLY PATRICIA PAXTON, ESQUIRE
Special Associate Counsel to the President
9 The White House
Washington, D.C. 20500
10 (202) 456-5079
11 On behalf of Defendant Hilary Rodham Clinton:
12 MARCIE ZIEGLER, ESQUIRE
Williams & Connolly
13 725 Twelfth Street Northwest
Washington, D.C. 20005
14 (202) 434-5803
15 On behalf of Defendants Federal Bureau of
Investigation and Executive Office
16 of the President:
17 ALLISON GILES, ESQUIRE
Federal Prograams Branch
18 Civil Division
United States Department of Justice
19 901 E Street Northwest, Room 988
Washington, D.C. 20530
20 (202) 514-5302
21
* * * * *
22
3
1 C O N T E N T S
2 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE
3 Counsel for Plaintiffs 7
4 JANENDA DEPOSITION EXHIBITS:
5 No. 1 - Notice of Deposition 48
Duces Tecum, Attachments
6
No. 2 - Response to Plaintiffs' 52
7 Notice of Deposition
8 No. 3 - Diagram 87
9 No. 4 - Press Release 256
10 No. 5 - Article: "Carville: I Zapped 264
Starr's Charges"
11
No. 6 - "Weekly Roundtable" Transcript 314
12
No. 7 - Special Report: "The 338
13 Communication Stream of
Conspiracy Commerce,"
14 Attachments
15 No. 8 - "The GOP is Using Congress 360
as a Committee on Harassing
16 the President," Attachments
17 No. 9 - 1998 Calendar - Office 366
18 No. 10 - 1998 Calendar - Home 368
19
* * * * *
20
21
22
4
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: Good morning.
3 This is the video deposition of Thomas D.
4 Janenda taken by counsel for Plaintiffs in
5 the matter of Cara Leslie Alexander, et al.,
6 v. Federal Bureau of Investigation, et al.,
7 in the U.S. District Court for the District
8 of Columbia, Case Number 96-2123, held in the
9 offices of Judicial Watch, 501 School Street
10 Southwest, Washington, D.C., on this date,
11 April 16, 1998, and at the time indicated on
12 the video screen.
13 My name is Sylvanus Holley. I'm
14 the videographer. The court reporter today
15 is Shari Broussard from the firm of Beta
16 Reporting. Will counsel please identify
17 themselves?
18 MR. KLAYMAN: Larry Klayman, if we
19 can pan to the various counsel, on behalf of
20 Judicial Watch.
21 MR. BOSTION: Don Bostion with
22 Judicial Watch.
5
1 MS. GILES: Allison Giles with the
2 Department of Justice for Mr. Janenda,
3 Executive Office of the President, and the
4 Federal Bureau of Investigation.
5 MS. PAXTON: Sally Paxton for the
6 White House.
7 MS. ZIEGLER: Marcie Ziegler for
8 the First Lady.
9 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: Will the court
10 reporter please swear in the witness?
11 Whereupon,
12 THOMAS D. JANENDA
13 was called as a witness and, having been
14 first duly sworn, was examined and testified
15 as follows:
16 MS. GILES: Let me state at the
17 outset I have our responses to Plaintiffs'
18 notice of deposition, original and two copies
19 of the documents that were produced. I'll
20 hand them to Mr. Bostion.
21 Could we note what time the video
22 tape is?
6
1 MR. KLAYMAN: We're going to put a
2 few things on the record here.
3 Just let the record reflect that
4 the videographer currently has on his
5 videographing equipment the time of 9:17. We
6 began at 9:15, 15 minutes later than noticed
7 because of the time needed by the
8 videographer to get his equipment to
9 function, but it's now in Eastern Standard
10 Time. So with that qualification I hope that
11 will put everybody in the right time sync.
12 On the issue of time I have an
13 appointment at 1:30 and I'm wondering if we
14 can break for lunch at 1:25, if that would be
15 all right with you?
16 MS. GILES: That's fine unless we
17 need a break sooner, but that's fine.
18 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay.
19 MS. GILES: Can we keep the break
20 fairly short, a half hour?
21 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I need about an
22 hour, hour and-a-half, somewhere in that
7
1 range, but, if necessary Mr. Bostion can
2 carry on if I don't get back after an hour.
3 MS. GILES: That's fine.
4 MR. KLAYMAN: The other aspect is
5 that we're aware that Ms. Paxton is here. We
6 know of your previous insistence to be here.
7 You're aware of our objections. I don't want
8 to make an issue of it here. But just for
9 the record, we've asked that Ms. Paxton not
10 consult with the witness during the
11 deposition. If you stand by your earlier
12 position that she will do so, then I just
13 want to put that on the record.
14 MS. GILES: We stand by our earlier
15 objection and feel that she is free to
16 consult with either me or Mr. Janenda during
17 the deposition.
18 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q Have we sworn the witness in?
21 Would you please state your name?
22 A Thomas D. Janenda.
8
1 Q When were you born, Mr. Janenda?
2 A February 25, 1969.
3 Q And where were you born?
4 A Manchester, Connecticut.
5 Q Tell us where you attended high
6 school.
7 A Manchester Public High School.
8 Q And when did you graduate?
9 A 1987.
10 Q And what did you do upon
11 graduation?
12 A I went to college.
13 Q Which college did you attend?
14 A I began at the University of
15 Connecticut and finished at American
16 University here in Washington.
17 Q When did you began at the
18 University of Connecticut?
19 A Fall of 1988, following the year --
20 Q Graduation?
21 A Yeah.
22 Q And what did you major in in
9
1 college?
2 A A liberal arts degree, political
3 science.
4 Q And when did you graduate?
5 A 1991, May.
6 Q During the time that you were in
7 high school or college did you have any
8 disciplinary problems?
9 A No, sir.
10 Q And what did you do upon graduation
11 from college?
12 A In terms of work experience
13 specifically or --
14 Q Whatever.
15 A Whatever?
16 Q Professionally speaking.
17 A I was -- I volunteered briefly on a
18 campaign in Massachusetts. My first paying
19 job after college was on the Harrison --
20 Q Let's start with the volunteer on
21 the campaign. Whose campaign did you
22 volunteer for?
10
1 A John Olver, was a congressional
2 candidate from Western Massachusetts I
3 believe. I -- that was unpaid.
4 Q Unpaid. That was upon your
5 graduation?
6 A Yeah.
7 Q How long did you work on that
8 campaign?
9 A It was about two weeks.
10 Q And What did you do?
11 A I passed out leaflets and whatnot.
12 I mean just -- I was a get-out-the-vote type
13 volunteer for the last week or week
14 and-a-half of the campaign.
15 Q Did you do any research on
16 opposition candidates or anyone else?
17 A No, sir.
18 Q And what did you do after your
19 two-week volunteer period with the candidate
20 Olver?
21 A My first paying job was for the
22 citizens for Senator Harris Wofford, which
11
1 was a senate candidate in Pennsylvania.
2 Q And what job did you have?
3 A I was a junior fund raising staff
4 person.
5 Q What year was that?
6 A 1991.
7 Q Was this during the year that
8 Wofford was already senator and was running
9 for re-election or was this just when he was
10 seeking election the first time?
11 A It was when he was seeking the
12 election the first time. He had been
13 appointed to the seat and was running for the
14 first time.
15 Q Who was your immediate supervisor
16 on that campaign?
17 A My immediate supervisor was a
18 gentleman named Scott Gale.
19 Q G-A-L-E?
20 A Correct.
21 Q And who were the campaign managers
22 on that campaign of Senator Wofford?
12
1 A The campaign manager was Paul
2 Begala and his deputy was -- I can't remember
3 her name, but then James Carville was the --
4 also running the campaign, senior strategist
5 or --
6 Q During that campaign, during your
7 work, did you have any contact with
8 Mr. Begala or Mr. Carville?
9 A I'm sure I probably did, although
10 not very much. I didn't work in the -- when
11 I first began, I was in the Washington office
12 and I had -- you know, would pass them in the
13 hallway. But for the majority of the
14 campaign I was in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania,
15 and the main campaign office was in
16 Philadelphia. So, yes, I did have contact
17 occasionally with them.
18 Q Under what circumstances did you
19 have contact? What was the nature of the
20 contact?
21 A Largely I would have to say just in
22 passing in that I was a junior finance
13
1 staffer. I think maybe I might bump into
2 them or they might know me to say hello. I
3 think when I first joined, I had -- Paul
4 Begala sort of welcomed -- said welcome to
5 the campaign type speech, but I didn't have a
6 great deal of contact with them.
7 Q Did you ever deal with them in a
8 professional capacity? In other words, tell
9 them you what were doing in terms of fund
10 raising or other matters?
11 A I don't recall that. There was a
12 deputy campaign manager who really dealt more
13 with the logistics of -- of the campaign and
14 James and Paul were really more of on the
15 media side of the campaign.
16 Q Who was the deputy campaign
17 manager?
18 A A woman named Pat -- Pat Ewing.
19 Pat Ewing was her name.
20 Q But I take it during the campaign
21 you did get to know both Mr. Begala and
22 Mr. Carville by first name? You call Paul
14
1 Paul and Carville James?
2 A Yeah, I think my -- the best of my
3 recollection, that's what everybody called
4 them.
5 Q How many people worked on the
6 campaign, were direct employees?
7 A I'd be guessing.
8 Q Roughly speaking?
9 A Roughly speaking, I would say 20,
10 25, something like that. I have no idea if
11 that's --
12 Q Did you know Mr. Begala and/or
13 Mr. Carville before that campaign?
14 A I did not, no.
15 Q How did you get your job?
16 A I had done some volunteer work,
17 co-op type work, while I was at American
18 University and, to the best of my
19 recollection, I was -- I had just gotten
20 to -- I had gotten to know some people from
21 Washington. For instance, the volunteer
22 experience that I told you about was because
15
1 of those experiences and then I met someone
2 working at the DNC who ran their job bank on
3 that -- during that course of that volunteer
4 experience and my recollection is that the
5 Wofford campaign fund raising person had
6 calmed the DNC looking for suggestions of
7 names to people -- for people to interview
8 and mine was one of the names that was
9 forwarded.
10 Q And who recommend you at the DNC?
11 A The best recollection I have is
12 that it was a gentleman named Andrew Morin
13 who was running the job bank?
14 Q That's M-O-R-I-N?
15 A To the best of my recollection,
16 yes, sir.
17 Q Have you ever met Craig
18 Livingstone?
19 A No.
20 Q Do you know who he is?
21 A I do know from reading reports, but
22 I don't believe I've ever met him personally.
16
1 Q Was he involved in any way in the
2 Wofford campaign back in 1991? Do you know?
3 A I -- I can't speak for the entire
4 campaign, but I personally don't have any
5 knowledge of him.
6 Q Did you ever meet Anthony Marceca?
7 A Again, not to the best of my --
8 Q You know who I'm talking about?
9 A From media reports I certainly do,
10 yes.
11 Q What in addition to fund raising
12 did you do in that campaign?
13 A That was pretty much it. That was
14 my job, was to, you know, raise money, do my
15 best to assist the fund raising staff.
16 Q You were aware on that Wofford
17 campaign there were persons doing opposition
18 research on Governor Thornberg?
19 A Yes, I was aware of that.
20 Q How did you become aware of that?
21 A I -- when I moved up to Harrisburg,
22 as I mentioned, there was a gentleman that I
17
1 roomed with named Zack Silverstein, and he
2 was one of the people that was doing record
3 on -- doing research on then -- well, I can't
4 remember up to -- Dick Thornberg's record as
5 governor, his public record as governor. So
6 I was certainly aware there was research
7 going on.
8 Q Where is Mr. Silverstein today?
9 A To the best of my knowledge, he is
10 still in law school in Chicago.
11 Q Does he go to the University of
12 Chicago?
13 A I believe it's --
14 Q Northwestern?
15 A Northwestern I believe.
16 Q Who else was doing opposition
17 research on that Wofford campaign?
18 A To the best of my recollection,
19 there were three people. Eric Berman, Jim --
20 I think it was Jim Bernfield.
21 Q How do you spell that?
22 A I would be guessing, but I believe
18
1 it's B-E-R-N-F-I-E-L-D. And I already
2 mentioned Zack Silverstein.
3 Q Was Berman and Bernfield doing
4 anything in addition to what Silverstein was
5 doing?
6 A I honestly -- I mean I can't speak.
7 I mean I didn't have very much contact with
8 them.
9 Q Where is Eric Berman today?
10 A He lives in and works in New York
11 City.
12 Q Do you know who he works for?
13 A He works for a PR firm. I'm not
14 clear. I -- I would rather not guess. It's
15 a PR firm in New York.
16 Q Well, this is discovery. If you
17 have some --
18 A My inkling --
19 Q Fine, give an inkling.
20 A -- is that it's Kekst & Company.
21 Q Kekst with a "K"?
22 A Yes.
19
1 Q How is that spelled?
2 A I think it's K-e-k-s-t is my --
3 that's a guess.
4 Q And where is Mr. Bernfield?
5 A I don't know.
6 Q How do you know that Eric Berman is
7 still at Kekst & Company? How did you find
8 that out?
9 A He and I are personal friends,
10 so -- and I worked with him after that time
11 and for him after that time.
12 Q When did you work with him and for
13 him after that time?
14 A In sequential order I worked --
15 following the Wofford campaign he offered me
16 a job to work on the Clinton campaign, the
17 Clinton primary campaign in 1992, and -- and
18 then at some point in 1993 he came to
19 Democratic National Committee and I worked
20 with him there.
21 Q What job did he offer you to do on
22 the Clinton primary campaign in 1992?
20
1 A It was a research position.
2 Q And what was his position on that
3 primary campaign? Did he have a title?
4 A Research director.
5 Q Now, during the Wofford campaign I
6 take it that the campaign employed private
7 detectives?
8 A I'm not aware of that. I can't
9 answer for the entire campaign, but I'm not
10 aware of anything personally.
11 Q Did you ever have access to
12 personnel files of Governor Thornberg during
13 that campaign?
14 A No, no, certainly not, and I wasn't
15 working in research, but, no, I'm not aware
16 of any such information.
17 Q Well, I take it you struck up a
18 friendship with Mr. Berman on that initial
19 campaign with Senator Wofford?
20 A I knew him. I didn't actually
21 strike up a friendship with him. It was more
22 through Zack, who I had lived with, that I
21
1 got to know and I think he's the one that
2 convinced Eric to hire me. I did not know
3 him very well.
4 Q Are you aware that Governor
5 Thornberg press secretary has gone to prison
6 for drug offenses?
7 A I'm not.
8 Q Did you ever hear that?
9 A I have no recollection of that.
10 Q Do you know whether on that
11 campaign, that senatorial campaign with
12 Senator Wofford in 1991, research was done
13 into the drug history of Governor Thornberg
14 press secretary?
15 A I have no recollection of that as
16 an issue.
17 Q How did you get your job with
18 Berman specifically --
19 A I --
20 MS. GILES: Which job?
21 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I'm sorry.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22
1 Q The one on the primary presidential
2 campaign when you became an opposition
3 researcher, correct?
4 A Correct, for that campaign, that's
5 correct.
6 Q Correct.
7 A My best recollection is that I
8 expressed at a social occasion -- expressed
9 an interest to Eric Berman shortly after
10 he -- I had heard that he had been hired as
11 the research director and that he called me
12 like the day after Christmas or something of
13 1992 -- no, yeah -- of 1991 -- I'm sorry --
14 and offered me a position.
15 Q Whose party was it that you
16 attended?
17 A I have no recollection.
18 Q Where was the party?
19 A It was on Capitol Hill at a -- my
20 best recollection is that it was on Capitol
21 Hill at a -- I don't know -- a burger --
22 burger joint. It wasn't a party for someone.
23
1 It was just some people got together socially
2 to have a hamburger and a beer.
3 Q Do you remember who was there?
4 A I don't.
5 Q Did Berman call you or did you call
6 Berman at the --
7 A On what occasion? I'm sorry.
8 Q After you saw him at the burger
9 joint and expressed an interest. He called
10 you I take it?
11 A He called me, as I said, my
12 recollection is that it was just after the
13 Christmas holiday.
14 Q And what, if anything, did he tell
15 you that he was interested in hiring you for?
16 A To be part of the research team
17 to -- I mean that's it, to be -- work with
18 him on research.
19 Q Why did you express an interest to
20 work on opposition research when you saw him
21 at the burger joint?
22 MS. GILES: Objection. Assumes
24
1 facts not in evidence.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: He just said he
3 expressed an interest. I'm trying to find
4 out why.
5 THE WITNESS: My best recollection
6 is that I was following the Wofford campaign
7 trying to find, you know, what my next job
8 was going to be and that while I had had
9 other offers to do fund raising work, that
10 I -- I was not interested in doing more fund
11 raising work and that this seemed like
12 something that allowed me to do more -- to
13 learn more substantively about issues and
14 what was going on in the campaign. It seemed
15 hike a good opportunity.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q I take it you had learned what
18 opposition researchers do before you had
19 asked Mr. Berman for a possible position?
20 You had some understanding as to what they
21 do?
22 A I had some understanding of
25
1 research on a campaign, yes, certainly, from
2 having lived with, you know, a guy who was
3 doing that kind of work.
4 Q And what was your understanding up
5 to seeing Mr. Berman at the burger place as
6 to what opposition researchers do?
7 A Work a lot of long hours and, you
8 know, read -- read public press clips and
9 whatnot and voting records and try to
10 organize that information in a useful way so
11 that during campaign as those issues come up,
12 you know, the campaign is able to respond to
13 those issues based on comparing public
14 records.
15 Q You had also learned that
16 opposition researchers will take information
17 from whatever source, correct? It wasn't
18 just limited to public sources?
19 A I -- no, I had not had any --
20 you're asking me about the period of when
21 I -- from the time I asked Eric.
22 Q Up to the point you approached
26
1 Mr. Berman at the burger place.
2 A No, I had very limited knowledge of
3 what it was other than they worked a lot of
4 hours and they were doing, you know,
5 organizing information about people's public
6 records.
7 Q But up that point in time no one
8 had ever told you that they had refused
9 information from a nonpublic source doing
10 opposition research, correct?
11 A Could you restate the question?
12 Q I want to know whether up to the
13 point in time that you talked to Mr. Berman
14 at the burger place anyone had ever told you
15 opposition researchers are prohibited from
16 getting information other than as public?
17 Did anyone ever say that to you?
18 A In that time period, no. I guess
19 I -- I don't remember that. I knew very
20 little about it at all. I knew very little
21 about it at all and so had anyone ever said
22 that to me, no, I don't believe so.
27
1 Q Now, when you talked to Mr. Berman,
2 he called you at your home? Is that how it
3 happened?
4 A When? Are you talking about the --
5 Q After you saw him at the burger
6 place and he contacted you, he called you at
7 home?
8 A Yes, he called me at home in
9 Connecticut.
10 Q You had given him your home number?
11 A I believe so. I must have or that
12 he got it some other way.
13 Q And what did he tell you
14 specifically he wanted you to be considered
15 for? What was the position to entail?
16 A I -- my recollection is that it was
17 a fairly brief conversation. It was okay.
18 When can you get down here was how he -- what
19 he said to me I believe. And I said -- you
20 know, I was surprised. You're kidding, I got
21 the job kind of thing. And it was a not a
22 very -- the extent of the conversation, to my
28
1 recollection, was how quickly can you get
2 down here and my having -- my saying not
3 until after the new year. It was -- it was a
4 brief conversation.
5 Q I take it he told you what he
6 wanted you to do?
7 A I mean my -- I don't remember that
8 we got into any discussion about it other
9 than that I was going to be like one of the
10 team of three people that were going to be
11 working on research.
12 Q Who did he say the other two were
13 going to be?
14 A Himself and myself and Zack
15 Silverstein.
16 Q And then I take it you finally came
17 down to Washington, D.C., for that job?
18 A Correct.
19 Q And did there come a point in time
20 when Mr. Berman or anyone else sat you down
21 and said here's what we want you to do as an
22 opposition researcher for the Clinton primary
29
1 campaign?
2 A Sure. I mean to the extent that I
3 showed up for work whatever morning it was,
4 January 2nd or 3rd or 4th or something like
5 that, and didn't know what I was doing, I'm
6 sure there was those kinds of conversations.
7 Q And where did you show up for work?
8 A It was F Street office. I don't
9 remember the exact address, but it was F
10 Street, downtown.
11 Q Did you become aware as to who ran
12 that office for the Clinton primary campaign?
13 Is that the headquarters?
14 A It was a D.C. -- sort of a smaller
15 D.C. headquarters and I don't know that I
16 recall who ran the entire office. It was --
17 it -- it changed quite a bit. I mean there
18 were not very many people when I first got
19 there.
20 Q I take it that someone sat you down
21 and told you what your job responsibilities
22 were at some point, correct?
30
1 A Yeah, I'm sure.
2 Q Who did and what did they tell you?
3 A I believe, you know, it was Eric
4 and Zack both and to my recollection it was
5 not all that extensive. It was, basically,
6 there are debates coming up and we don't have
7 very much time to attempt to generate some
8 type of public record on the five people or
9 whatever number of people there were that
10 were going to be in the democratic primaries.
11 And I was -- I sat, you know, next to Zack
12 and I -- you know, they gave me a stack of
13 paper and said -- asked me if you have any
14 questions, but, you're, basically -- you
15 know, we're looking to fill in people's
16 public records on these 10 issues and here's
17 a stack of voting records asking me different
18 questions. I mean it was that -- that's my
19 best recollection of how it happened. And
20 that there was then a lot of consulting on my
21 part with people to try to figure out what
22 was going on.
31
1 Q Were you advised at that point or
2 any point later that the Clinton primary
3 campaign had hired private investigators or
4 detectives to look into certain women that
5 the President was alleged to have involvement
6 with, the then Governor Clinton?
7 A I'm not aware at any point of my
8 work for the Clinton campaign that there was
9 any discussion of private investigators.
10 Q Did you ever have any contact with
11 Betsy Wright?
12 A I wouldn't completely rule it out,
13 but I honestly believe the answer is no, I
14 don't remember having had any.
15 Q During the primary campaign I take
16 it you got to know James Carville and Paul
17 Begala better?
18 A To some extent, yes.
19 Q What contact did you have with
20 them?
21 A My conversations with them were, I
22 think, fairly limited. They tended to deal
32
1 more with the director of the office. But
2 I'm sure that on occasion there was a phone
3 line that we had that was sort of designated
4 for calls from Governor Clinton's campaign
5 plane or something like that, that no one
6 else had that number. So if that phone rang
7 and Eric wasn't in the office or Zack wasn't
8 in the office, I would answer it. So I'm
9 sure that I had occasions where they would
10 call and I would answer it.
11 Q I take it on occasion that you
12 would discuss the opposition research that
13 you were conducting on the five democrat
14 primary opponents with Mr. Carville or
15 Mr. Begala?
16 A Just to be clear, I myself only did
17 any -- research on -- on one that -- you
18 know, I think I only did one candidate.
19 Q Which one?
20 A Senator Kerry, whom I have a great
21 deal of respect.
22 Q Bob Kerry?
33
1 A Correct.
2 Q From Nebraska?
3 A Correct.
4 Q And you were assigned to Senator
5 Kerry?
6 A Correct.
7 Q Who assigned you to Senator Kerry?
8 A I couldn't say for sure. I assume
9 it was Eric Berman, as he was my boss.
10 Q What were you asked to do to
11 research Senator Kerry?
12 A As I described it, I was told that
13 there were 10 or so issues that were going to
14 come up that I was to go through. It was a
15 very rudimentary operation at that point and
16 we had stacks of -- of like CQ votes. So I
17 was told to try to go through and pull out
18 votes that I thought was of note of these 10
19 topics and then to try write those to try to
20 make, you know, a one pager of votes that I
21 thought were interesting on those 10 or 12
22 public issues.
34
1 Q Were you asked to research Senator
2 Kerry's personal background?
3 A No, sir.
4 Q Who was asked to research Senator
5 Kerry's personal background?
6 A To my knowledge, no one was asked
7 to research.
8 Q You are aware that research was
9 conducted on the personal backgrounds of some
10 of the democrat candidates that were opposing
11 Governor Clinton?
12 A I -- honestly I don't know what you
13 mean by that, so if you could explain what
14 you mean. I'm not aware of that, but --
15 Q You are aware that research was
16 done on Governor Jerry Brown's personal
17 background, are you not, during that Governor
18 Clinton primary campaign in 1992?
19 A I don't know of any research on his
20 personal life that was done by the Clinton
21 campaign, no.
22 Q Did you ever visit Nebraska during
35
1 the period that you were working on the
2 primary campaign?
3 A No, sir.
4 Q Did you ever speak with anybody in
5 Nebraska?
6 A No, not to the best of my
7 recollection.
8 Q Who was assigned to research
9 Governor Jerry Brown's background? I'm not
10 talking necessarily personal, but just to do
11 research concerning Governor Jerry Brown.
12 A I -- I don't recall honestly and I
13 don't -- and the bottom line is I don't
14 believe he was someone that was -- you know,
15 in a limited amount of time, limited
16 resources, I don't recall that anyone --
17 Q Would it have been Mr. Silverstein
18 that would have been assigned in the ordinary
19 course?
20 A I can't -- no. Again, I have
21 no recollection of anyone having been
22 assigned him.
36
1 Q You are aware that there was an
2 issue during the primary campaign about
3 allegations the Governor Jerry Brown had used
4 drugs or someone that lived in his house had
5 used drugs?
6 A I remember that as something that
7 was written about, yes.
8 Q Who researched that in the Clinton
9 campaign?
10 A Again, I have -- I don't recall
11 that anyone was researching Jerry Brown on
12 the campaign. I mean I'm not saying that it
13 didn't happen at some point, but my
14 recollection is that he was not someone, with
15 a limited amount of time and resources, that
16 we had as a starting-out research operation.
17 He was not something that we focused on is my
18 best recollection.
19 Q Who did the primary campaign
20 consider to be the biggest threat to
21 receiving the nomination for Governor
22 Clinton?
37
1 A I can't speak for the campaign.
2 Q Based on your knowledge. I'm not
3 asking you to speak --
4 A No, I can -- honestly I don't -- I
5 remember that I had -- that I was assigned
6 Governor Kerry -- I mean Senator Kerry and
7 I -- I can't recall who else, five years ago
8 who was assigned to who. I don't recall.
9 Except that I think somebody had Harkin,
10 Senator Harkin, and I just -- I don't
11 remember the rest of it.
12 Q Were there others in the Clinton
13 campaign in addition to Mr. Berman, yourself
14 and Mr. Silverstein, that dealt with
15 opposition research or gathering information
16 about adversaries? In other words, you
17 worked in the F Street office, I take it, the
18 three of you, correct?
19 A Correct.
20 Q Were there others in other offices
21 that were doing those types of things?
22 MS. GILES: Object to the term
38
1 "adversaries." Can you clarify what you mean
2 by that? The political opponents.
3 MR. KLAYMAN: Political
4 adversaries, yes.
5 THE WITNESS: Well, as I described
6 it, I did research on the four or five
7 primary opponents or I did personally
8 research on one of them and that was what our
9 office was doing and I am not aware of -- I'm
10 not aware of another office that was doing
11 similar work, no.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q We're going to go through your
14 history just to lay a foundation here, as
15 lawyers say. How long have you been involved
16 in matters dealing with politics or
17 government? Since you graduated from
18 college?
19 A Since I graduated from college, so
20 it's been my only paying jobs since 1991,
21 Summer of 1991.
22 Q So that's seven years?
39
1 A Sure.
2 Q Now, you are aware that in politics
3 campaigns do try to dig up dirt on opponents,
4 correct?
5 A I would ask you to define what you
6 mean by dig up dirt.
7 Q Negative information about the
8 opponent.
9 A Again, I would -- I would say
10 that -- I can tell you what I've done and
11 what I was asked to do as an opposition
12 researcher on a campaign staff, which was,
13 you know, organizing and making easy to read
14 and understand people's public records, and
15 that's -- that was what I did, yes.
16 Q Are you saying that during your
17 experience in seven years you're completely
18 unaware that political campaigns try to get
19 negative information about their perceived
20 adversaries?
21 A No, what I'm saying is that what
22 I -- what I've done -- are you asking me or
40
1 are you asking this too, for generally
2 campaigns?
3 Q I'm asking you based an your
4 knowledge.
5 You are aware that in political
6 campaigns adversaries try to dig up negative
7 information about their opponents, correct?
8 A I guess I'm just -- I would like
9 you to characterize negative, what you mean
10 by negative.
11 Q I'm just talking with you straight
12 up here.
13 A Right.
14 Q In simple terms.
15 A Sure.
16 Q Before this deposition today,
17 Mr. Janenda, did you meet with any lawyers?
18 A Yeah.
19 Q Who did you meet with?
20 A My two counsels that are sitting
21 here.
22 Q Who are your two counsel?
41
1 A Sally Paxton and --
2 MS. GILES: Allison Giles.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q Allison Giles. In what capacity
5 is --
6 A And, I'm sorry. To be fully
7 honest, I also had a very brief conversation
8 with another attorney in the White House
9 counsel's office.
10 Q Who was that?
11 A Buzz Waitzkin.
12 Q Buzz Waitzkin. How do I spell it?
13 A I'd be guessing, W-A-I-T-Z-K-I-N.
14 That's a guess.
15 Q In what capacity is Ms. Paxton
16 representing you here today?
17 MS. GILES: Objection. He's not a
18 lawyer. He's not really qualified to identify
19 what her role is.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q Is she representing you personally,
22 Ms. Paxton?
42
1 MS. GILES: Ms. Paxton's role as
2 the White House attorney --
3 MR. KLAYMAN: Wait, wait. I don't
4 want her testimony. I want to know what he
5 knows. We have a motion for sanctions
6 pending on giving testimony. I hope that you
7 would not do it.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q What role is Ms. Paxton here today?
10 Is she your personal attorney?
11 MS. GILES: If you know.
12 THE WITNESS: As far as I know, she
13 is a White House attorney and Ms. Giles is a
14 Department of Justice attorney.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q Did either of them identify to you
17 what capacity they're representing you?
18 MS. GILES: Objection. The witness
19 is instructed not to answer any substance of
20 the conversations he had with --
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q I'm not asking for what was
43
1 actually said. I'm just was wondering if
2 they've told you what capacity they consider
3 to be here on your behalf today.
4 MS. GILES: Well, that is
5 substance. What we've said to him is
6 privileged and I'm instructing him not to
7 answer.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm just identifying
9 whether any such communication was made. I'm
10 not asking for the actual communication.
11 MS. GILES: But it does reflect the
12 actual communication. Whether something was
13 said reflects the substance of our
14 conversation and I'm instructing the witness
15 not to answer.
16 MR. KLAYMAN: It does not. It does
17 not. And we've been through that. I would
18 have hoped you would have had a chance to
19 read some of the citations that we put in our
20 briefs by now.
21 But we're entitled to ask whether
22 or not there was communication on the issue
44
1 of the capacity of the representation. I'm
2 not asking you for anything that you learned
3 from your counsel in terms of what was that
4 capacity, although I think I'm entitled to
5 ask that, too, but that's not this question
6 right now.
7 MS. GILES: I'm instructing the
8 witness not to answer.
9 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q I'm not talking about anything that
12 may have occurred by virtue of the
13 conversation with counsel. To the best of
14 your knowledge, do you have personal counsel
15 here today?
16 A No, sir.
17 Q You don't?
18 A I just answered your question to
19 the best of my knowledge as a nonlawyer.
20 Q Now --
21 MS. GILES: And I will clarify for
22 the record that I am representing Mr. Janenda
45
1 in his personnel capacity as well as an EOP
2 employee.
3 MR. KLAYMAN: I would ask you to
4 clarify for the record what is the legal
5 basis for the Justice Department to be
6 expending resources on this individual in a
7 personal capacity.
8 MS. GILES: I'm not under oath.
9 I'm not here to answer questions. I'm just
10 making it clear I'm representing Mr. Janenda
11 in both his capacities.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q Now, did you meet with Ms. Paxton
14 in the presence of others when you met with
15 her?
16 A Only Ms. Giles, Ms. Giles and on
17 one occasion I believe with also the two of
18 them and Glen Weiner.
19 Q So you had one meeting with just
20 Ms. Giles and Ms. Paxton?
21 A Are you asking me --
22 Q Yes. The first meeting was with
46
1 Ms. Giles and Ms. Paxton?
2 A That's -- I'm a little confused
3 after a week of all of this, but to the best
4 of my recollection, my first meeting was -- I
5 don't know. I can't put the order of it
6 together.
7 Q Roughly speaking?
8 A I would hate to guess.
9 Q Within the last week --
10 A I've had meetings with both of them
11 together on a couple of occasions since I was
12 notified.
13 Q Was anybody else present during
14 those meeting besides Ms. Giles and Ms.
15 Paxton?
16 A On one occasion, to the best of my
17 recollection, one occasion was also Glen
18 Weiner.
19 Q Are you saying there were three
20 meetings? How many meetings were there in
21 preparation for this deposition?
22 A Maybe four, something like that,
47
1 four.
2 Q And in all but one of those
3 meetings it was Ms. Paxton and Mr. Giles that
4 was present?
5 A That is the best of my
6 recollection.
7 Q And all of these four meetings
8 occurred within the last week, week or so?
9 A Correct.
10 Q And how long did each of these
11 meetings last? Let's start with the first
12 meeting.
13 A It would be better giving you a
14 ballpark.
15 Q Just give me a ballpark?
16 A For all four?
17 Q Give me a ballpark for all four.
18 A 12, 12 hours, something like that.
19 Q How long was the meeting, roughly
20 speaking, when Mr. Weiner was there?
21 A I honestly would be guessing. My
22 recollection is it was brief.
48
1 Q I don't know what brief means.
2 Roughly speaking?
3 A Brief, 15 minutes, half an hour,
4 something like that. That's to the best of
5 my recollection. And, again, I'm -- at this
6 point I'm guessing. That's the best of my
7 recollection.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I
9 will ask the court reporter to mark as
10 Exhibit 1.
11 (Janenda Deposition Exhibit
12 No. 1 was marked for
13 identification.)
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q Have you ever seen Exhibit 1
16 before, Mr. Janenda?
17 A Not having had a chance to look at
18 it, from glancing at the cover it appears to
19 be whatever you served on me last week.
20 Q You can take a look at it.
21 A As far as I can tell, it appears to
22 be the same thing you served on me last week.
49
1 Q At any of these meetings did you go
2 through Exhibit 1 with any of your counsel?
3 MS. GILES: Objection. I mean he's
4 free to talk about what documents he reviewed
5 before the deposition, but not specifically
6 what documents you reviewed with counsel.
7 MR. KLAYMAN: No, I asked whether
8 you reviewed Exhibit 1 with counsel and he's
9 not --
10 MS. GILES: Objection. He's not to
11 discuss what documents he reviewed with
12 counsel. If you want to keep --
13 MR. KLAYMAN: I didn't ask the
14 question, Ms. Giles. I asked whether you
15 went through the various requests for
16 production of documents in Exhibit 1, not
17 what documents you went through.
18 MS. GILES: This is a document, but
19 I mean I'm going to allow him to testify
20 whether he seen it before, went through it,
21 but I would ask you to refrain from asking
22 questions about what documents he looked at
50
1 with counsel.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q I haven't not gotten to that
4 question yet. But I simply am asking you
5 whether Exhibit 1, whether you reviewed the
6 various requests for documents that are
7 listed in Exhibit 1 with counsel during these
8 12 hours of meetings?
9 MS. GILES: Objection. If the
10 question is whether he's seen the document
11 before, whether he's reviewed it, I'm happy
12 to have him answer those questions. I would
13 just try to steer away from what he reviewed
14 with counsel. That's privileged information.
15 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you telling
16 me I'm not allowed to ask him whether or not
17 he went over Exhibit 1 with you?
18 MS. GILES: That's correct.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
20 MS. GILES: Why don't you just ask
21 whether he reviewed the document period.
22 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll ask the way I