Skip to content

Judicial Watch • JW v IRS TIGTA Oral Testimony 00596

JW v IRS TIGTA Oral Testimony 00596

JW v IRS TIGTA Oral Testimony 00596

Page 1: JW v IRS TIGTA Oral Testimony 00596

Category:

Number of Pages:169

Date Created:April 9, 2015

Date Uploaded to the Library:April 18, 2017

Tags:camus, CHAFFETZ, tapes, 00596, oral, planet, depos, planetdepos, Oversight, reform, testimony, tigta, Chairman, Lerner, government, meeting, george, Obama, White House, FBI, committee, DOJ, FOIA, IRS


File Scanned for Malware

Donate now to keep these documents public!


See Generated Text   ∨

Autogenerated text from PDF

Committee Oversight and Government Reform
Meeting
February 26, 2015
Job No.:
79514
Transcribed by: 143
Stephanie Hummon, RPR
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
CHAIRMAN CHAFFETZ:
The Committee
Oversight and Government Reform will come order.
Without objection, the Chair
authorized declare recess any time.
The Internal Revenue Service, the IRS,
perhaps other agency, other institution
our government causes more fear, more concern, more
distress, outright panic the mere mention
their name than the IRS.
Entanglement with the IRS never good.
Most Americans work hard, pay their taxes, and just
want live life free harassment. the IRS employees are good, decent,
hard-working, patriotic people doing tough job
working for the government and are honest their
dealings.
And most
But, unfortunately, not all them.
Nearly two years ago, the Treasury
Inspector General for Tax Administration, often
referred TIGTA, did audit that confirmed
what many this committee had feared and heard:
The IRS was targeting and delaying the applications
for 501(c)(4) status conservative nonprofit
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
organizations because their political beliefs.
The IRS was the lookout for applications that
focused the national debt, quote, criticized
how the country was run, end quote, that sought educate the public how to, quote, make
America better place live, unquote.
These were conservatives trying play the rules, but some the IRS didnt want them the game.
They didnt even want them have
voice.
When was first revealed that the IRS
was targeting Americans and suppressing their First
Amendment rights because their political
beliefs, President Obama said this, quote, If,
fact, IRS personnel engaged the kind
practices that have been reported on, and were
intentionally targeting conservative groups, then
thats outrageous and theres place for it, and
they have held fully accountable.
the IRS, independent agency, requires
absolute integrity, and the people have have
confidence that they are applying the laws
Because
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
nonpartisan way, end quote. agree with the President. was
absolutely and totally right.
But sometime right before the Super Bowl
rolled around, before any the investigations
were complete, the President concluded there was,
quote, not even smidgen corruption, end
quote. have idea how the President came
such definitive conclusion without all the facts,
but obviously sent signal how would
like this concluded. the one hand, the President has come conclusion, and, the other hand, theres
ongoing investigation the Inspector General and
the Department Justice.
But Congress has role. the new
chairman the committee, thought would
appropriate get update the investigation
from the Inspector General.
the facts, wherever they may lead us. want focus
And, thus far, the IRS, and specifically
its Commissioner, has given lot different
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
answers some fairly simple questions.
The Oversight Committee subpoenaed the
IRS August 2013 seeking emails from Lois
Lerner, well others involved the
targeting.
Lois Lerner emails.
Months later, did not have all the Oversight hearing March 26,
2014, Commissioner Koskinen testified under oath
that had all the emails and would produce all
the emails.
Yet, June 13, 2014, the IRS sent
letter the Senate Finance stating multiyear
tranche Lois Lerners emails had been destroyed. June 13, 2014, letter sent Senate Finance
said, quote, IRS confirmed the backup tapes from
2011 longer exist because theyve been recycled
pursuant the IRS normal policy, end quote.
June 20, 2014, before Ways and Means,
Chairman Camp said, quote, Your letter describes
the Lois Lerner emails being unrecoverable, end
quote.
end quote.
Commissioner Koskinen, quote, Correct,
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
February 11, 2015, Oversight
hearing, Mr. DeSantis Florida says, quote, You
made the effort.
You made the effort find what the committee
wanted, end quote.
end quote.
You were not cavalier about this.
Mr. Koskinen, quote, Yes,
The IRS Commissioner has said they went
to, quote, great lengths and made extraordinary
efforts recover the emails.
This but small
sampling the Commissioners definitive and
precise statements about the missing emails.
believe what will hear this evening far
different than were led believe.
Yet the men and women the Inspector
General office, cannot thank you enough for your
hard work, the long days that youre working get
the information the American public and for this
committee. look ultimately reading the final
report, but appropriate give update
today, and appreciate you being here.
With that, will yield back and
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
recognize the gentleman from Maryland, the ranking
member, Mr. Cummings.
MR. CUMMINGS:
Thank you very much, Mr.
Chairman. want take moment commend you
for the way the committee has been running since
you became Chairman.
respect for our side, and really appreciate that.
And that goes not only for you, but your staff, and
You have shown tremendous appreciate everything that theyve done work
with us.
collaborative atmosphere our committee, and that due your efforts and the tone you have set.
Everyone notices the more collegial and
Mr. Chairman, there are certainly issues
were going disagree on, and todays hearing
one those issues.
heart, and will disagree without being
disagreeable.
But take your words
With respect todays hearing,
believe premature.
Two days ago, Mr. Camus,
who will testifying few moments with the
Inspector General, told our staff, said their
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
investigation not finished. not done, and that they will not able
fully answer many the questions members have
this time.
That their report provided our staffs with some
information about the status their efforts
recover additional emails from Ms. Lerner, but
cautioned not discuss those details publicly
while their investigations still ongoing.
Based this request, seems that the best course
action would have the Inspector General come
back when his report complete that can
discuss fully.
Nevertheless, since are here, will
make just three points.
First, according the Inspector
Generals previous work, the emails that were lost
when Ms. Lerners hard drive crashed were from
before Ms. Lerner discovered that inappropriate
criteria was being used IRS employees
Cincinnati.
June 13th, 2011, but she was not informed until
Ms. Lerners computer crashed
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
June 29th, 2011, that IRS employees were using
inappropriate criteria screen tax-exempt
applicants. the Inspector General May 2013, more than year and half ago.
That according report issued
According the same report, after Ms.
Lerner discovered what was going on, she, and
quote, immediately directed that the criteria
changed, end quote.
Second, the Inspector General has
identified evidence that the White House
directed this activity.
Republicans, there simply evidence, after
nearly two years investigating, support this
wholly unsubstantiated conspiracy theory.
Despite many claims
Third, the Inspector General has
identified evidence that Ms. Lerner
intentionally crashed her computer.
contrary, all the evidence have obtained,
including contemporaneous emails sent the time,
indicates that her computer crashed due
technological problems. the
And nothing have
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
learned since the Inspector General issued his
previous report contradicts these findings. have also learned nothing since that
time contradict the account the
self-described, quote, conservative Republican,
end quote, screening group manager
Cincinnati, who was interviewed this committee June 2013.
employees were motivated only desire stated that and his
efficiently group large number similar cases
rather than any political bias.
Let conclude putting some
additional facts the record.
Todays hearing the 21st hearing our
committee has held these issues.
fourth time the Inspector General has testified
before this subject.
IRS, Mr. Koskinen, has testified before six
times these topics, not counting many additional
appearances before other committees.
This the
The Commissioner the
This committee has conducted more than
transcribed witness interviews these issues.
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
The IRS has produced more than one million pages
documents this topic.
more than 250 employees responding these
inquiries, and they dedicated more than 150,000
hours work effort address our concerns. its peak, the IRS had the end last year, the IRS reported
spending approximately $20 million responding
congressional inquiries. enormous amount money.
Twenty million dollars
That total does not
include the amounts weve spent here this
committee.
numerous other committees have been spent. does not include the amounts
And conclude saying does not
include the amounts other agencies have spent,
including Department Justice, the Federal
Elections Commission, the Securities and
Exchange Commission.
amounts the Inspector General has spent and
continues spend this day.
And does not include the
Going forward, sincere hope that will work bipartisan manner hearings
that further our shared goals benefiting the
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
American people.
And, with that, yield back.
CHAIRMAN CHAFFETZ:
Thank you.
Ill hold
the record open for five legislative days for any
member who would like submit written
statement.
Well now recognize our panel
witnesses.
Pleased welcome the Honorable
Russell George, Inspector General with the Treasury
Inspector General for Tax Administration; and Mr.
Tim Camus, Deputy Inspector General for
Investigations with the Treasury Inspector General
for Tax Administration. welcome you both.
Pursuant committee rules, all
witnesses will sworn before they testify.
will please rise about raise your right hands. you solemnly swear affirm that the
testimony you are about give will the truth,
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
Thank you.
You may seated.
Let the record reflect that all witnesses answered the affirmative.
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING understand you may have one statement, opposed two five-minutes, well very
generous your time.
time you need make this understanding that
there will one opening statement.
MR. GEORGE:
Feel free take much
Well, actually, have
very brief opening statement, and then will defer Mr. Camus.
CHAIRMAN CHAFFETZ.
Very good.
Please
proceed.
MR. GEORGE:
Chairman Chaffetz, Ranking
Member Cummings, Members the Committee, the
committees request, were here discuss the
progress our efforts recover former IRS
Exempt Organization Unit Director Lois Lerners
missing emails.
With me, again, Deputy Inspector
General for Investigations Tim Camus, who
leading TIGTAs efforts into this matter, which was
requested the Senate Finance Committee.
Our objective this evening provide
you with much information possible the
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
progress our email recovery efforts, without
compromising the integrity our ongoing
investigation into the circumstances surrounding
the IRSs losses data and hard drive crashes.
Tonights testimony snapshot what know today.
such this, important note that the
facts and status may frequently change
perform further analysis data and conduct
Given email recovery undertaking
additional interviews. result, ask that you understand
that our testimony this evening progress
report.
the information provide today may, fact,
change before complete our ongoing
investigation. have not reached any conclusions, and
And, with that, will now turn
Mr. Camus provide detailed discussion the
progress our search for the missing emails.
CHAIRMAN CHAFFETZ:
Mr. Camus.
MR. CAMUS:
Thank you.
Chairman Chaffetz, Ranking
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
Member Cummings, and Members the Full Committee,
Ive been requested come here today provide update agencys efforts thus far
attempting recover the missing emails former
IRS employee Lois Lerner. June 13th, 2014, letter the
Senate Finance Committee, the IRS reported that was completing its document production for
Congress concerning allegations that the IRS
targeted certain 501(c)(4) applicants, the IRS
realized that the production the emails
Lois Lerner, the former Director IRS Exempt
Organizations Division, had gaps the email
production.
The IRS reported computer suffered hard
drive crash, and therefore, some her emails
could not recovered.
The following Monday, June 16th, 2014,
TIGTA initiated investigation the Senate
Finance Committee that requested TIGTA formally
investigate the matter, including to, quote,
perform its own analysis whether
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
any data can salvaged and produced the
committee, unquote.
The circumstances surrounding the loss
data, the hard drive crash, and the manner which
IRS handled its electronic media are still under
investigation.
updated certain committees Congress, including
this committee, concerning our progress
recovering emails.
However, have periodically
But have not discussed the
investigation itself.
There are two parts our mission here.
One part attempting recover the emails, and
the second part investigate the circumstances
surrounding the missing email.
Until the investigation completed, the
facts and circumstances, understand them, can
and have changed daily basis.
speculating and reaching conclusions that later
turn out false, investigators, avoid
drawing any conclusions until all the facts are
in. continue thoroughly and impartially avoid owe the American people ensure that
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
investigate this matter, gathering all the facts
and evidence order get the truth.
That said, this time, cannot provide
any information the investigation surrounding
the IRSs loss the data and hard drive crash,
that could negatively impact our ability
complete the investigation, well raise
questions into the integrity our investigative
process.
But, this time, will provide
progress report our efforts recover missing
emails.
The IRS manages its email for its 91,000
employees routing the email through Microsoft
Exchange Servers that are backed periodically
using backup tapes.
Servers are also referred email servers, are
comprised hundreds hard drives that are
placed into server racks.
These Microsoft Exchange until May 2011, the email server that
handled Lois Lerners email traffic was located
New Carrollton, Maryland, Federal Building.
2011, the IRS migrated from the email server New
During
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
Carrollton new email server located the
IRSs Martinsburg, West Virginia, Computing Center.
After the IRS migrated its email system
Martinsburg, the IRS turned off the email server
New Carrollton.
place, possibly precautionary measure, should
the new email servers Martinsburg fail.
employees reported that the New Carrollton email
server hard drives were later removed from the
However, the server was left
IRS
server, erased and destroyed. June 30th, 2014, TIGTA demanded that
the IRS provide all backup tapes used back
Ms. Lerners IRS email account, specifically, all
backup tapes used for emails during the time period January 1st, 2008, through December 31st, 2011.
These date ranges were selected ensure that
obtained any overlap emails accounted for
midyear equipment changes. result this demand, July 1st,
2014, the IRS identified the 744 backup tapes that
met this criterion, and TIGTA took possession
all the identified 744 backup tapes.
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
With regard nine the 744 backup
tapes, based how they were configured the
backup machine, the IRS was unable determine the
dates they were used.
technicians believed was possible that these
nine tapes had been untouched for years and, thus,
could contain clear data relevant the
investigation.
Because this, IRS
Because TIGTA did not have the unique and
necessary hardware, these nine tapes were provided the Federal Bureau Investigation order
determine the tapes contained any data and,
they did, retrieve it.
the nine tapes and validated their equipment
reviewing other random backup tapes, they reported
their equipment was functioning properly and they
reported the nine tapes were, fact, blank.
After the FBI analyzed
TIGTA then provided those same nine tapes recognized industry leader electronic data
recovery, and they confirmed the nine tapes were, fact, blank.
After confirming these initial nine tapes
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
were blank and fearing that the remaining 735 tapes
were overwritten, TIGTA interviewed the IRS email
expert and identified the specific backup tapes
that would have contained the earliest copies
Lois Lerners email box.
The backup tapes consisted five sets tapes.
These five backup sets were created
sequential weeks from November 20th, 2012, through
December 25th 2012.
The five backup sets were
expected produce total five separate copies Lois Lerners email boxes one copy for each
week the backup. hand carried three the five sets
these backup tapes the industry expert for data
recovery and extraction, and, after their
examination and extraction data, they provided
TIGTA with the Exchange database files from this
set tapes. November 13th 2014, TIGTA searched
the database files and identified the first
Lois Lerner email box.
Lois Lerner emails that date back far 2001.
This email box contained
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
The result this effort validated that the tapes
have not been overwritten, and they contained
emails that are relevant the requested time
range search for emails.
TIGTA then processed the remaining five
backup sets for the relevant requested
sorry.
backup tapes the same manner, later finding that
each the five backup sets contained one
TIGTA then processed the remaining sets
Lois Lerner email box, for total five email
boxes, exactly expected. the conclusion this process, TIGTA
identified 79,840 Lois Lerner emails, which
almost percent were duplicates.
duplicates resulted 32,774 Lois Lerner unique
emails.
Removing the critically important note that
these 32,774 emails need compared with the
emails and documents the IRS has already produced Congress order determine there are any
newly identified emails.
finalizing the procurement the software
Currently, are
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
accomplish this match. noted earlier testimony, the
IRS email system routes email messages through
email servers that are comprised hundreds
hard drives. just completed testimony about the
status our examination the backup tapes
associated with the email system, and now want
discuss the status the hard drives that were
the email server May 2011, one month prior
when Lois Lerners laptop hard drive crashed. July 11th 2014, TIGTA discovered
that the hard drives from the decommissioned New
Carrollton email server were not destroyed
previously reported the IRS.
TIGTA secured the 760 hard drives that are believed part the old New Carrollton email server. the same day,
TIGTA conducted preliminary examination the limited selection hard drives and
determined that, based the information that
could seen from these hard drives, these drives
are more than likely the email server drives that
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
processed Lois Lerners emails 2011 and prior. important note that the email
servers process and keep copies email traffic
hundreds drives that are specifically positioned server racks.
the layout indicating where each the specific
hard drives was positioned the racks.
any without understanding the exact order
which the hard drives were placed the server
racks, finding any complete and relevant emails
would very difficult and labor intensive, not
impossible.
are damaged, could potentially impossible
recover any useable emails.
The IRS did not retain copy
Finding addition, any the hard drives recently determined that were
unable anything further with the hard drives,
and have initiated the process contract for initial feasibility analysis the 760 hard
drives recognized industry expert
electronic data recovery.
Less than two weeks ago, also learned
that there may have been backup tapes older than
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
the original 744 backup tapes obtained July 2014.
424 tapes, and are the early stages
understanding they have been erased, and any these older tapes contain emails data
interest the investigation. have taken possession additional summary, date, have found 32,774
unique emails that were backed from Lois
Lerners email box. are the process
comparing these emails what the IRS has already
produced Congress determine did,
fact, recover any new emails.
process having the email server hard drives
analyzed determine there are any readable
emails that can recovered from these hard
drives. also are the
And, finally, are continuing
determine there are any other sources that may
contain Lois Lerner emails. noted earlier, this ongoing
investigation, and have provided the information
that believe will not hinder our ability
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
continue our investigation, while simultaneously
providing the Congress with the progress the
email search.
Thank you.
CHAIRMAN CHAFFETZ:
Thank you.
Ill now
recognize myself for five minutes.
Mr. Camus, from the time you started
try find the tapes that contained the emails,
how long did actually take you find them?
MR. CAMUS: started the process when opened the investigation.
backup tapes June 30th.
believe was, was the first time saw Lois
Lerner emails. obtained the
And November 13,
CHAIRMAN CHAFFETZ:
But from the time you
sought find the emails the time the
tapes the time you actually got the place
West Virginia, how long did that take?
MR. CAMUS:
Literally about two weeks.
CHAIRMAN CHAFFETZ:
So, despite
everything that the IRS said, from the time you
started the time you found them was about two
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
weeks.
MR. CAMUS:
Correct.
CHAIRMAN CHAFFETZ:
When you showed
and talked the people and said, well, whats
happened here, what did they tell you?
MR. CAMUS:
our questions fully.
CHAIRMAN CHAFFETZ:
They cooperated and answered
Had anybody ever
asked them for the tapes?
MR. CAMUS:
No.
CHAIRMAN CHAFFETZ:
subpoena.
hear all kinds excuses from the IRS.
have them.
Theyre recycled.
destroyed.
Theyre not available.
find mean, every excuse you can have under the
sun.
then when you talk the people who are
there charge them, they told you that
they were never even asked for them; that
correct? send letters. send
You start. have hearings.
They cant
Theyve been cant
You find them two weeks.
MR. CAMUS:
Thats correct.
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
And
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
CHAIRMAN CHAFFETZ:
Are there potentially
even more tapes?
MR. CAMUS:
Well, believe there may
additional tapes that just learned two weeks
ago.
CHAIRMAN CHAFFETZ:
any potential criminal activity?
MR. CAMUS:
The entire matter continues under active investigation, yes, sir.
CHAIRMAN CHAFFETZ:
Are you investigating
For potential
criminal activity?
MR. CAMUS:
Yes.
CHAIRMAN CHAFFETZ:
The IRS first knew
that there were problems with the emails back
February 2014, didnt they?
MR. CAMUS: believe thats thats
correct.
CHAIRMAN CHAFFETZ: April 2014,
they had concluded that they had problem their
hands.
actually became aware that there were problems,
correct?
But wasnt until June 2014 that TIGTA
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
MR. CAMUS:
That right.
CHAIRMAN CHAFFETZ:
And guess thats
part what colleagues need understand here, that the IRS knew that there were problems back February 2014, but wasnt until June
2014 that they actually started let Congress and
TIGTA know, despite what the IRS Commissioner told
us.
Mr. Koskinen said, quote, confirmed the backup told were given full cooperation.
tapes from 2011 longer existed because they have
been recycled, end quote. that true false?
MR. CAMUS:
Were looking two
populations tapes.
for them.
tapes with the date ranges, they provided the 744
tapes.
the new population tapes literally two weeks
ago. there was some confusion
When asked for the initial set believed those were the tapes. found believe those were the 2011 tapes.
CHAIRMAN CHAFFETZ:
Chairman Camp asked one point, quote, Your letter describes the
Lois Lerner emails being unrecoverable, end
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
quote.
Commissioner Koskinen responds, Correct.
The Lois Lerner emails are ultimately
recoverable, arent they?
them.
MR. CAMUS: least portion recovered quite number emails, but until compare those whats
already been produced, dont know theyre new
emails.
CHAIRMAN CHAFFETZ: got tell
you, have been patient. have asked.
have issued subpoenas.
Ways and Means, Senate Finance, House Oversight and
Government Reform.
you start, two weeks later, youre able find the
emails, you and talk the people who are
charge this, and nobody even asked them for the
tapes? have held hearings; the
Its just shocking that
Ive got tell you, really
appreciate the great work that you are doing
this.
greatest respect for him.
statistics that believe were given him
You know, the Ranking Member, Ive got the
And cited some
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING the IRS; 250 employees and thousands hours
and all this. get to, and nobody even asked them for it.
Didnt even ask.
But the one thing that were trying
Ill yield back. recognize the Ranking Member.
MR. CUMMINGS:
CHAIRMAN CHAFFETZ:
Oh, apologies.
Were going recognize the gentleman from
Virginia, Mr. Connolly, for five minutes.
MR. CONNOLLY: Mr. Connolly. thank the Chair, and
thank the Ranking Member.
And, boy, can relate your
frustration, Mr. Chairman, asking for document
and not being given it. have asked for simple document from Mr. George
himself.
Why, Mr. Cartwright and
Mr. George, February 5th, 2014,
filed complaint against you with the Integrity
Committee the Council IGs, raising serious
concerns over the troubling activities your
office under your leadership:
Publishing
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
incomplete and misleading findings, engaging
partisan activities, meeting solely with
Republicans this committee, excluding Democrats,
and allowing determine the scope your
audit. September 17th, requested copy
your response the contents raised our letter.
September 17th, five months ago.
your counsel assured our staff email you
would respond the request.
The next day, this date, you
have not responded the request. really sympathize with the Chairmans
frustration not getting documents.
subpoena you, but your office assured wed get
copy.
response our complaint before the Integrity
Committee CIGIE? didnt
Where that where the copy your
MR. GEORGE: you know, sir, the
Integrity Committee the CIGIE operated
led the Federal Bureau Investigations. understanding that you your staff have
reached out the FBI, requesting the materials
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
And
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
that you cited. understanding the FBI
refused provide you with that information
because that their policy.
understanding, sir.
MR. CONNOLLY.
MR. GEORGE:
And thats
Actually -As today, sir, have not
received written request from you from this
committee requesting that waive Privacy Right
Act Privacy Act rights.
MR. CONNOLLY:
Let make two points
that, Mr. George.
First all, with respect your
privacy rights, let quote from the Integrity
Committee CIGIE with respect privacy. are not presently aware restriction
imposed the Privacy Act provide ones own
response, unquote.
Quote,
Secondly, your staff indicated email
you would responsive five months ago.
Now, you need written request from Mr.
Cartwright and myself, Ive asked staff
present you right now.
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
MR. GEORGE:
MR. CONNOLLY:
Well -Here written request
that are asking for simple document, your
response our complaint before CIGIE
CHAIRMAN CHAFFETZ:
The gentleman will
share that document with the Chair, please.
MR. CONNOLLY:
Happy so,
Mr. Chairman.
CHAIRMAN CHAFFETZ:
MR. CONNOLLY: that now, please.
But, mean, cant have both ways this committee.
complaining about the fact that IRS, having
provided tens thousands documents, hasnt
provided every little thing want.
were willing subpoena, and were willing
waive Fifth Amendment rights and everything else,
when the TIGTA himself has not provided copy,
simple document, your response our complaint. think were entitled it. cant
You want written request?
Fine.
And
Youve got
it, Mr. George.
MR. GEORGE:
And would just note, Ill
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
take this under advisement with counsel, but
should point out that the FBI conducted its review the Integrity Committee, and exonerated
myself and organization.
MR. CONNOLLY: know nothing about
exoneration.
And, for the record, Mr. Cartwright and
are going resubmit the complaint, because the
response got was bureaucratic and inadequate one paragraph.
unresponsive, feel have reopen this
investigation and ask the new chairman CIGIE
cooperate with us.
Were going pursue that, Mr. George.
And because you were
And were going that. feel you cant youre the
guardian IRS documents and you yourself are the
subject investigation complaint and you
wont provide one document, what standing have you
got advise this committee about how retrieve capture documents were seeking?
MR. GEORGE:
Well, Mr.
Connolly, not
going engage debate with you here, but
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
theres certain information youre not going
able receive access related this
investigation pursuant Title 26, Section 6103
the United States Code.
MR. CONNOLLY:
MR. GEORGE:
Yes.
And so, once the
investigation completed, you will receive
conclusion, the Congress will receive conclusion.
And there are certain committees Congress that have access that information.
receive the materials.
MR. CONNOLLY:
MR. GEORGE:
MR. CONNOLLY:
But -We look forward it, Mr.
George.
They will just -Ive been waiting for over
five months.
MR. GEORGE:
Just relates
investigation and organization, youre not
entitled certain documents.
MR. CONNOLLY:
MR. GEORGE.
MR. CONNOLLY:
Oh, really?
Thats correct.
Well, well see about
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
that, wont we, Mr. George?
MR. GEORGE:
MR. CONNOLLY: yield back.
CHAIRMAN CHAFFETZ:
Recognize the gentleman from Florida, Mr.
Your prerogative, sir.
Yes, is.
Thank the gentleman.
Mica, for five minutes.
MR. MICA:
Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and
thank you for following up. looks like weve been lied
least misled. recently February 11th,
Commissioner Koskinen, the IRS Commissioner, came
before again, and repeatedly stated that the
emails were not recoverable.
for some time that some these were recoverable.
Now, they have known that correct, Mr. George?
MR. GEORGE: going defer
Mr. Camus for that, sir.
MR. MICA:
MR. CAMUS: that true?
Mr. Mica, dont know
what they knew and when they knew it.
The only
thing know that, our investigators followed
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
the trail, were able determine number
emails.
already been produced. have yet compare them whats
MR. MICA:
Well, the IRS consistently
stated from June 2nd, 2014, when Cate Duval
identified the problem, till June 13, 2014,
letter the Finance Committee that the agency did
everything possible recover the emails.
But, the meantime, you started your recovery
when? 2014?
MR. CAMUS:
MR. MICA:
June 2014, yes, sir.
June 2014.
Were they
have they been made aware all that there was
some recovery underway?
MR. CAMUS:
Theyve been provided this
similar information what
MR. MICA:
Theyve been provided similar
information, and yet, since then, theyve been
coming and most recently said, our experts
said had way, they were unrecoverable.
That wouldnt statement fact.
otherwise, did they not?
They knew
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
MR. CAMUS:
MR. MICA:
is, okay, youve found 32,000.
24,000.
sources, other employees, not from the tapes.
And you found 32,000, did you say?
Okay.
The other thing, too,
Weve been provided
And understand got those from other
MR. CAMUS:
MR. MICA: would appear so.
Yes, sir.
Okay. that means theres least 8,000 more than likely havent seen.
You havent turned any those over yet,
have you?
MR. CAMUS:
No, sir. still have
match -MR. MICA:
Okay.
What the process
getting those us?
software company help separate them.
would you estimate the time frame?
MR. CAMUS:
You said youve got
What
Well, were hoping get the
software any time.
anticipate more than week for the match occur.
MR. MICA:
Once that, dont you can get there
are about would mean, this simple
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
math.
that probably wouldnt have access, because
youve got weve got 24, youve got 32. addition, you said now youve found
There are about 8,000, wouldnt you say,
2011 tapes two weeks ago.
MR. CAMUS:
MR. MICA: that correct?
Yes, sir.
What kind volume you think
you got there?
What would tape have? the emails?
Has that been looked all?
MR. CAMUS:
Any idea
The tapes are vary size
due how much compacted them, its very
difficult tell. determine about the new population tapes they, fact, have been erased.
possible
One the first things have
MR. MICA: may
And youve found some tapes
have been erased that you cited your testimony the ones that you were given the previous
batch?
MR. CAMUS:
There were some blank tapes the initial batch.
MR. MICA:
Were they erased, were they
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
blank?
MR. CAMUS:
That impossible
determine.
MR. MICA: is. know that there
are some tapes that either were blank made
blank, right?
MR. CAMUS:
Correct.
MR. MICA: erased?
MR. CAMUS:
Correct.
MR. MICA:
Okay.
And, again, how long
will take you process the new tapes get
us, you think?
MR. CAMUS: just started the process,
and were trying understand theres
any they theres any data them
all.
start with sample sizes.
There are 424 them, and were going
MR. MICA:
MR. CAMUS:
Yes, sir.
MR. MICA:
Holy Moses.
Four hun did you say 424?
Because the other
was 700 -MR. CAMUS:
744.
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
MR. MICA:
And that produced the 32,774. theres there could good volume tapes
that have never been seen with mean, there are volume tapes never seen, but they could
contained volume emails never been seen.
that possible?
MR. CAMUS:
MR. MICA:
MR. CAMUS: possible.
Okay.
Its important note
that that the total number emails, 39,744,
again, that some them could have already been
produced
MR. MICA:
MR. CAMUS:
Yeah. and some them are
earlier than the time frame question.
MR. MICA:
Well, Mr. Chairman, too, what
concerns witnesses have come before from
IRS and have denied that that the some
these things existed, denied that they had
knowledge.
lied the committee, and think that should
taken under advice counsel.
And think that they have misled
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
Yield back.
CHAIRMAN CHAFFETZ: now recognize the gentlewoman from New
Thank the gentleman.
York, Ms. Maloney, for five minutes.
MS. MALONEY: thank the witnesses and
the Chairman and the Ranking Member for calling
this hearing.
Mr. Camus, would like walk through
how you found these additional emails and clarify
exactly what they might contain.
were reports that there were 80,000 new Lois Lerner
emails, but now youre saying that the number
closer 32,000.
number went from 80,000 32,000?
Originally, there can you explain how the
MR. CAMUS:
Yes, maam. went from 80,000 32,000 because removed
duplicates. have were backups, one week after the other.
there was high number percent them
were duplicates each other.
80,000 total and you took out the percent that
were duplicates, that give the subset.
The five the five email sets that you took the
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
MS. MALONEY:
MR. CAMUS:
MS. MALONEY:
Duplicates the 80,000?
Yes, maam. theyre just duplicates the 80,000?
MR. CAMUS:
MS. MALONEY:
Yes.
Okay.
So, clear,
these 32,000 emails are what remained after your
office removed all these duplicates from the batch 80,000?
MR. CAMUS:
MS. MALONEY:
That correct.
Well, now now, thousands emails from Mrs. Lerner were already provided
the committee the IRS; that correct?
MR. CAMUS:
MS. MALONEY:
Yes.
And you know how many
these 32,000 emails have already been produced
this committee?
MR. CAMUS:
That step the process
that have yet take, but plan taking soon can get the available software.
MS. MALONEY: possible that some these 32,000 emails have already been provided
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING the committee?
MR. CAMUS:
MS. MALONEY:
Yes, maam. they could actually
already your files and theyre for everybody review?
MR. CAMUS:
MS. MALONEY:
That correct. how long going
take this matching process find out if,
fact, theres any new material?
MR. CAMUS: can get our hands the software.
MS. MALONEY:
MR. CAMUS:
MR. CAMUS:
Weve been anxiously waiting. ordered the software December -MS. MALONEY: how long you think
its going last? are going soon
Uh-huh. and were negotiations
with the vendor obtain it.
MS. MALONEY:
And once you get the
software, how long going take
MR. CAMUS:
Were hoping will only will take week.
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
MS. MALONEY: week.
Okay.
And so, understand from your testimony here today, you
are unable confirm whether there are any, use
your own words, new emails, right?
MR. CAMUS:
MS. MALONEY:
material you already have, right?
MR. CAMUS:
Thats correct. whats before may
MS. MALONEY:
That correct. may ask, why are
here?
Mr. George, why are hearing oclock night something which may not
any new material all?
talking about content.
this something thats already there.
already threw out percent the 80,000, down
32,000, because was exactly the same thing. why are here?
MR. GEORGE:
And were not even
Weve got decide whether
You that rhetorical
question, Ms. -MS. MALONEY:
No.
No, seriously.
mean, what new material you have?
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
MR. GEORGE:
Well, important
keep Congress informed the status the
investigation.
Chairman that are are before you this
evening.
And was the request the
MS. MALONEY: was not your idea
have hearing oclock night material
that may already your office.
match it, may material new material
And, once you
all, right?
MR. GEORGE:
MS. MALONEY:
That correct.
Well, would say that that
clearly fits the definition premature waste time.
Would you agree?
MR. GEORGE:
MS. MALONEY: not going -All right.
But want clear. know.
know.
You cannot even
begin draw any conclusions about the contents
any possible implications that might have this
investigation this time because you dont even
know you have any new material; that correct?
You dont even know its any new material.
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
Its
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
just rerun what may already just your
office, like the percent that you threw out
the 80,000 emails. want thank you for testifying today. time has expired. would yield the Ranking Member,
but look forward you coming back when you have
some real material for us.
MR. GEORGE:
Most definitely.
MR. CUMMINGS:
Thank you.
Mr. Camus, exactly, you can tell us,
whats involved those negotiations for this
software?
the rate youre going with your negotiations, that
youll have it? would benefit the entire committee have some
kind idea what kind time frame were
talking about.
And how soon you anticipate, based
Because think the committee
MR. CAMUS:
There there seems
dispute with the vendor over certain licensing
rights, rights come and review how the
software being used, which would mean they could
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
come and look the material that were
matching, and thats not acceptable the federal
government.
negotiations going right now between our
procurement officers and the vendor. there are those types
But this renowned company that has
the software that need the job.
forensically.
this particular moment, this particular case,
Its used
And its just very unfortunate,
that were running into this problem this time.
CHAIRMAN CHAFFETZ:
Thank you. would note the gentlewoman, the
reason were here havent had update
year and half.
ago, they found more than 400-and-some-odd tapes.
They are pursuing potential criminal
investigation.
took them days.
time and time again from the IRS that said,
cant find them, theyre destroyed, theyve been
duped over.
Thats, part, why were here today.
And just little over week
They went find the tapes;
Weve had testimony time and
And they found them days.
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING now recognize
MS. MALONEY:
Will the gentleman yield?
Will the gentleman yield?
CHAIRMAN CHAFFETZ: going
recognize the gentleman from Ohio, Mr. Jordan, for
five minutes.
MR. JORDAN:
Mr. Camus, learned from John Koskinen thank the Chairman.
and the IRS that they had lost the backup tapes,
that the backup tapes longer existed, when
got letter well, the letter went the Senate
Finance Committee, but thats when learned,
thats when the American people learned.
When did you learn?
the backup tapes didnt exist?
MR. CAMUS:
MR. JORDAN: you learned like everyone
else?
MR. CAMUS:
MR. JORDAN:
The same the same time
everybody else.
When did the IRS tell you that
Yes, did.
Okay.
And then when did you
find the tapes that the IRS said didnt exist?
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
MR. CAMUS: asked for them June
30th, and had them July 1st.
MR. JORDAN:
Thats where thats where
the Chairman was few minutes ago.
MR. CAMUS:
MR. JORDAN:
Yes. you learned like the
whole world, and then, the Chairman said,
days later, you find them.
MR. CAMUS:
Howd you find them? asked for them, and
demanded them.
MR. JORDAN:
actually get the physical tapes?
MR. CAMUS:
But, mean, howd you
Whatd you do?
Well, identified the IRS
experts that would know where the tapes are.
interviewed them, and obtained them.
MR. JORDAN:
Did you get car and
drive Martinsburg, West Virginia?
MR. CAMUS:
MR. JORDAN:
Thats correct.
Yeah.
You just got the
car, drove the place that had the tapes and
said, Can see the tapes?
And those people, when you got the tapes from them,
Here they are. Yeah.
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
you said, Hey, the way, did the IRS ask you
did they come out and ask you the tapes were
here?
their answer was?
You asked them that question, right?
MR. CAMUS:
MR. JORDAN:
And
No.
No, they didnt.
just did something pretty simple.
tapes? you
Where are the
drive, and going get the tapes. going get the car, going
Now, the Chairman pointed out, for
four months, the IRS knew they lost the tapes
lost them and didnt tell us.
whole world, told you June 13th, and within
few days, you had those tapes.
and or, excuse me, 744 tapes you got July
1st.
MR. CAMUS:
MR. JORDAN:
And there were 770
Correct.
When you drove
Martinsburg and actually got the tapes?
MR. CAMUS:
MR. JORDAN:
And then told the
Thats right.
Okay. you have that
number you had lot numbers your
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
testimony, but want focus that number.
And then want focus on, were these the only
tapes you have gotten youve actually gotten your possession?
youve got?
Are these the only tapes
MR. CAMUS:
No. two weeks ago,
recovered additional 424 tapes.
MR. JORDAN:
All right. thats what
you pointed out near the end your testimony. 744 tapes originally.
you obtained 424 more.
these tapes?
MR. CAMUS:
Now, just two weeks ago,
Howd you find out about were following
our initial interviews, realized that were
missing document.
and reviewed it, realized that there were
additional population tapes that had been
unaccounted for.
MR. JORDAN:
When obtained that document
So, missing document.
Whose document was that, and who should have given
you that document?
MR. CAMUS: was IRS document.
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
MR. JORDAN: they withheld document
from you that prevented you from figuring out there
were more tapes than these 744; that accurate?
MR. CAMUS:
Withholding the document,
cant characterize that the time because thats
still under investigation.
MR. JORDAN:
They didnt give you
document, and not having the document, you
couldnt figure out that there were more tapes out
there with potentially more Lois Lerner emails
them; that correct?
MR. CAMUS:
MR. JORDAN:
That would accurate.
Yeah. any concerns about
the fact that that document wasnt there?
did you figure out that the document was missing?
MR. CAMUS:
Just following up.
And how
were were coming down the conclusion
our investigation, make sure have all the
documents.
short one document, went and demanded it, and
obtained it.
there were population tapes that had never when determined that were
Then were able notice that
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
been disclosed.
MR. JORDAN:
those tapes?
They were also
Martinsburg.
MR. JORDAN:
The same place?
MR. CAMUS:
And were those where were you got the car and
drove there again, right?
MR. CAMUS:
MR. JORDAN:
MR. CAMUS:
MR. JORDAN:
Yes, did.
You got more tapes? did.
Amazing.
Amazing.
So, now,
heres the key.
And this the Chairman,
his opening round questions.
the IRS take four months tell you something, and
they dont even the place you figured out two weeks, you got car, drove there, and
got them, the IRS says they dont exist.
You can you can find them two two weeks,
get access those tapes, and then you learned
that there four months there, you get
two weeks.
giving you the documents that you need find even when you have
Right?
And then you learn that theyre not
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
more tapes. when the Chairman asked the important
question:
here, your answer was?
MR. CAMUS: there potentially criminal activity
There potential criminal
activity.
MR. JORDAN:
And thats thats
thats the thing, right?
like it. mean, sure smells the IRS takes four months tell
something important as:
emails, and their excuse is:
diligence, were doing everything darn well can get those, and then when they make
public the whole world they didnt tell you
ahead time.
whole world.
Suddenly, theyre, Oh, wait minute well, two
weeks get them. lost Lois Lerners
Were doing our due
They told you when they told the
And two weeks, you got them.
And then you find out, addition
that, theyre withholding documents that uncover
even more tapes.
Were talking over 1100 tapes that now have. were not talking 744 tapes.
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
And so, course, this thats why
were shes done left.
This why were having the hearing.
American people understand 1100 tapes that the IRS
said, Theyre gone, cant get them, and all
you get car, drive Martinsburg, West
Virginia not that far, one state over and get
the tapes.
Holy cow.
She should have stayed.
When the course should have
had this hearing two weeks ago when you first
learned that those tapes those 424 tapes were
out there.
CHAIRMAN CHAFFETZ:
MR. JORDAN:
Thank the gentleman. times expired. yield
back.
CHAIRMAN CHAFFETZ:
Now recognize the
gentleman from the Massachusetts, Mr. Lynch, for
five minutes.
MR. LYNCH:
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And want thank Mr. George and Mr. Camus for
your help tonight.
misgivings about doing this hearing halfway through
Although, have serious
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING audit.
And know you, your precatory
address, you talked about that.
And have ask both you:
typically hearing like this halfway through
audit, when youre not complete, when you know that
things could change, you said?
MR. GEORGE: you
Congressman, actually, the
audit complete.
Weve initiated subsequent audit looking how
The initial audit complete.
other groups were treated -MR. LYNCH: know that.
But you also
said youve got lot more work.
matching think you got do.
find out whether whether these are duplicates
from period before any this occurred. youve got lot that you havent
MR. GEORGE:
MR. LYNCH:
Youve got this
Okay?
You have
Theyre two separate --- determined, and you
havent made any conclusions yet.
MR. GEORGE:
Excuse me, sir.
separate tracks.
theres investigations track.
Theres two
Theres the audit track, and then
And Ill ask Tim
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING address the investigations track.
MR. CAMUS:
Thank you, sir.
Its,
generally, dont discuss ongoing investigations.
This particular matter and this particular case such interest many parties, were trying limit our discussion -MR. LYNCH:
trying do.
that. know know what youre
And appreciate that. appreciate
And know youre trying mightily adhere that standard.
But, the middle this, theres
allegations out there, repeated allegations, that
this potentially criminal activity.
potentially not criminal; that correct?
Its also
MR. CAMUS:
Thats correct.
MR. LYNCH:
Yeah.
MR. CAMUS: have conclude our
Well
Dont
investigation.
MR. LYNCH:
And yet, theres allegations
that, you know, the IRS withholding documents.
And thats not necessarily true.
otherwise, right? could
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
MR. CAMUS:
Its possible.
MR. LYNCH:
Right.
Well, heres
May 22nd, Mr. George, you testified before this
committee, and you said this, and quote:
are established procedures for conducting audit.
And, once this audit and once again, this audit.
investigation and ensure that are completely
accurate with information that convey
There
And ensure fairness this
Congress, will not report information until the
IRS has opportunity take look and
ensure that were not misstating the facts. you remember saying that, sir?
MR. GEORGE:
MR. LYNCH:
Vaguely, yes.
Right.
And then when pressed
further, you said this, Sir, but would
impractical for give you impartial
information which may not accurate.
counterproductive, sir, were that.
Thats what you said.
MR. GEORGE: would
Again, understanding is,
referring the audit.
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
MR. LYNCH:
Well, this says says,
Why, your interview, counterproductive
publically disclose information regarding ongoing
audits and investigations?
MR. GEORGE:
Well, dont recall saying
that, but youre quoting me, -MR. LYNCH:
Heres another one.
response another question, you said, and
quote: think would behoove all
ensure that accurate information given
Congress that dont act precipitously.
you are you are sure are aware, many
times when information conveyed the Hill, sometimes not retained the Hill, and that
not fair the people who are investigating. you recall saying that?
MR. GEORGE: would recall that,
definitely.
MR. LYNCH: very concerned
about this whole process, for your reputational
interests, not just for people who are suspected
wrongdoing. just think its wrong.
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
And youre telling that, once you get
this software two weeks time, youll able the match, youll able give some
concrete determinations.
Right now, this all speculation, and
think hurts this hearing.
And this not
issue that should sidestepped.
that.
good job, and shouldnt out off not saying just saying should very, very
half-cocked before you can make the determinations
that you need make.
hard evidence here, when you can actually say
whether not there was whether here was
affirmative withholding here.
whether not people hid things or, was said
earlier, were lied to.
MR. GEORGE:
MR. LYNCH:
And that have have
When you can say -Right now, concerned
about the due process rights these people who
are being accused absentia, when when
dont have the evidence. end this investigation, and were doing this dont have final
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
halfway through the process.
Thats just
think should better than that.
And takes two more weeks and
have waited long time.
dont begrudge the Chairman from being frustrated. frustrated too.
like stone cold full report here that
can actually our job.
too much speculation going from the full have waited.
And
But would like would
And, right now, theres
spectrum possibilities.
And respect your desire and your effort keep this down to, you know, just the mechanics what youve been doing, but its gone far beyond
that already.
impugned, your own admissions here, the people
who youre investigating.
come back bite and, indeed, hurt the
integrity your own investigation, doing this
prematurely.
And think think youve
And think that may yield back.
CHAIRMAN CHAFFETZ: thank the
gentleman.
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
Now recognize the gentleman from
Michigan, Mr. Walberg, for five minutes.
MR. WALBERG:
Thank you, Mr.
Chairman.
And thank you for continuing this investigation. think they doth protest too much.
And
the gyrations that are going on, trying indicate
that are premature, gracious, this
premature, hate see what delayed is.
This our responsibility, Mr. Chairman,
and thank you, oversight, continue push get the answers.
duplicates, but should have had those.
should have 80,000.
the right have those.
thats being done here.
32,000, they may all have the responsibility and
And appreciate the work mean, were still talking about
citizens who have been attacked their
government.
day, its still going on.
cant forget.
have been resolved, how come still havent
received determination one way the other,
Theyre IRS intimidated.
Even this
These are people you say the targeting issues
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
asked Rick Harbaugh, leader the Albuquerque Tea
Party, which has been waiting years for its tax
exemption. their mind.
here. are still being targeted.
Thats
And its good work were doing May 2013, the DOJ announced that
would conducting independent investigation
the IRS targeting conjunction with the Treasury
Inspector General for Tax Administration, you
folks. the 2013 press conference where Holder
made the announcement, said, Those were,
think, everyone can agree, not criminal, they
were certainly outrageous and unacceptable.
were examining the facts see there were
criminal violations.
But
Good.
But DOJ official involved the
investigation, who doing this his Eric
Holders behest, was Barbara Bosserman, who
contributed the maximum amount President Obamas
campaign.
The DOJ leaked last year that did not
anticipate any criminal charges being filed.
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
And,
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
earlier this year, February 13th, exact, our
Attorney General, Eric Holder, said, satisfied
with the progress that the Criminal Division has
done.
expect that will have some final recommendations
coming relatively soon.
The Civil Rights Division, well.
Well, thats the case, then
important that these studies, these
questioning right now.
Let ask Mr. George and Mr. Camus,
TIGTA still participating the DOJs
investigation the targeting conservative
nonprofit groups?
MR. CAMUS:
MR. WALBERG:
Yes, sir, are. this investigation
nearing completion?
MR. CAMUS:
Thats DOJ investigation. cant comment their behalf.
MR. WALBERG:
Are you aware any
criminal charges are going filed?
MR. CAMUS:
MR. WALBERG: not aware that, sir.
Considered filed?
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
MR. CAMUS: not aware the
specifics.
MR. WALBERG:
Are you aware that,
January, Eric Holder stated that the DOJs
investigation was nearing completion and that DOJ
would making recommendations IRS?
MR. CAMUS:
statement, sir.
MR. WALBERG:
MR. CAMUS:
MR. WALBERG: you know what these
recommendations will be? not aware that not. think were getting
trend here.
Another reason for this hearing: find
whos first, whos second, whats
progressing, what have expect, what need looking for.
Isnt your job and not the job DOJ make recommendations the IRS?
MR. CAMUS:
MR. WALBERG:
MR. CAMUS: is.
Your job that. is.
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
MR. WALBERG: the purposes for which
you are undertaking this investigation, you are
doing with diligence.
You may have question, Mr. George,
about one document.
Weve got 32,000 documents
that were concerned about here.
But more than that, again, back
the fact that are concerned about citizens,
private citizens, taxpaying citizens, citizens who
have First Amendment liberties, citizens who have
the right know that their government will not
after them untoward ways simply because their
beliefs, their values, who they join and involve
themselves with.
And thank you for the good work youre
doing. wish that could receive the
information that requested could work
alongside parallel process get the
bottom what ought the American ideal, and
thats freedom and opportunity.
Mr. George, you have statement?
MR. GEORGE:
Just briefly. think its
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
important note that had made recommendations the IRS this very issue and are the
process reviewing see whether not those
recommendations have been implemented.
hopefully, that report will out the not too
distant future.
MR. WALBERG: yield back.
CHAIRMAN CHAFFETZ:
And,
Thank you. thank the
gentleman. recognize the gentleman from
Pennsylvania, Mr. Cartwright, for five minutes.
MR. CARTWRIGHT:
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. George, case you anyone
listening does not fully understand why
Mr. Connolly and have filed complaint against
you, heres the beef.
Inspectors General Integrity and Efficiency,
CIGIE, the organizing entity for IGs across
Federal agencies.
like you how conduct investigations
nonpartisan manner.
The Council the
They issue handbook for IGs
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
This what the handbook says about
discussing ongoing investigations with Congress,
and quote, IGs should avoid any appearance
partisanship such engagements.
meetings and outreach the most appropriate
format for such OIG meetings, unquote.
Bipartisan
What troubling that, during
this investigation, you and your staff have engaged series activities that contradict this
clear guidance. the beginning this investigation,
more than three years ago, your staff held
private meeting with Republican staff working for
former Chairman Darrell Issa this committee.
That meeting occurred March 2012, during
which your staff discussed the scope the
investigation.
not informed, and did not participate.
Democrats were not invited, were July 11, few months later, you sent private letter former Chairman Issa confirming
these events.
After our meeting, our Office Audit recently
This what you wrote, and quote,
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
began work the issue. would happy
provide status update the subcommittee staff.
You sent copy that letter Representative
Jordan, but you did not send copy any
Democrats. May 15, 2013, you issued your report.
So, right there, that means you worked over year your audit for this committee with the Democrats this committee entirely the dark you, who
are required bipartisan and not partisan. what did you write the May 15th,
2013, report?
BOLOs.
being targeted, but you did not reference any
progressive groups that know were subjected
similar treatment.
You said you talked about the
You talked about the right-wing groups
When you came before this committee
May 22, week later, 2013, asked why your
report did not address progressive groups.
said, and quote, Because those groups did not
have, again, the the Lookout, Tea Party,
Patriot, 9/12 their names.
You
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
When asked you about specific reports
that the IRS was treating progressive groups
similarly, you said this, and quote, have
subsequently received information that what youre
indicating may have occurred, and, result,
will conducting follow-up review determine
whether not thats the case. July 18, 2013, you testified before
this committee again. that hearing, showed
you internal IRS documents indicating that
progressive groups were subjected this type
scrutiny and were also included training
materials.
recently, and that name was being used the IRS.
So, you know, indicated opening
statement, just recently, last week, received
new information that disturbing and need
pursue.
you did not discover these documents about
progressive groups earlier.
You said, just learned about that you testified was disturbing that
But, about month earlier, June 23,
2013, your communications director stated publicly
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
that the reason for this was because you were
only looking for Tea Party groups.
chairman Issa had directed you, and quote her
words, narrowly focus Tea Party
organizations.
She said
When you testified July 18, 2013, you
said she misspoke, your communications director
misspoke.
its own, deciding focus only conservative
So, apparently, was your office,
groups and not review progressive groups. January 27, 2014, your staff held
another meeting with Republican staff, and
Democrats were excluded yet again.
February Ranking Member Cummings wrote
complain about partisan activities and not
including Democrats.
activities have continued this day. fact,
Nevertheless, these partisan
About month ago, January 22, your
staff met privately with Chairman Chaffetz,
Chairman Jordan, and others.
Democrats present.
the meeting was going happen.
There were
You did not inform the minority
And wasnt
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
until days later that your staff finally
provided the minority with that briefing.
Mr. George, you sit here today, this
evening, are you aware that your handbook says,
IGs should avoid any appearance partisanship. such engagements, bipartisan meetings and
outreach the most appropriate format for such
OIG meetings?
Are you aware that this evening?
CHAIRMAN CHAFFETZ:
The gentlemans time
has expired, but the gentleman, Mr. George, may
answer the question.
MR. GEORGE: mean, theres quite bit information there, sir, and theres lot that
would like respond to.
dont control the attendees meetings.
invited the chairman full committee
subcommittee meet with him her -MR. CARTWRIGHT:
But suffice say,
Its yes
question.
handbook, that you have bipartisan?
Are you aware that thats your
MR. GEORGE:
Ive engaged
bipartisanship entire political and professional
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
career, sir.
So, yes,
MR. CARTWRIGHT:
CHAIRMAN CHAFFETZ:
MR. CARTWRIGHT: that was your
CHAIRMAN CHAFFETZ:
MR. GEORGE:
CHAIRMAN CHAFFETZ: -The gentlemans time
has expired.
MR. CARTWRIGHT:
Gentlemans time has
expired.
The gentlemans
handbook two and half years ago?
And did you know yield back, Mr.
Chairman.
CHAIRMAN CHAFFETZ:
Thank you. now recognize the gentleman from South
Carolina, Mr. Gowdy.
MR. GOWDY:
And, Mr. George, want you take heart
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
and want you heartened the fact that
when one side has good facts, they pound the facts;
and when they have good law, they pound the law;
and when they dont have either facts law, then
they like pound the judge.
And thats what
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
weve been listening tonight.
Ive heard more
questions and tougher questions directed you
than Ive heard directed Lois Lerner.
you take heart. want
And well get back this bipartisanship
here towards the end, because like invite
friends from the other side the aisle write
letter the Department Justice.
the appearance partisanship, have DOJ
Speaking
lawyer who contributed the maximum the
President, and thats whos supposed
investigating.
So, perhaps, Mr. Chairman, could have letter, and could get some Democrats sign
that letter with us, and can ask the Department Justice update the status the
investigation and whether not Ms. Bosserman
the right person conduct that investigation.
However, Mr. Camus, want ask you this:
Mr. Koskinen, Commissioner Koskinen, June
2014, said that there was evidence criminal
wrongdoing, which found stunning, because
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
was not aware previously that was criminal
investigator.
the IRS.
night. thought was the Commissioner think both learned something that had conducted full investigation and
found criminal wrongdoing, which found also
stunning because the Ways and Means Committee had
made criminal referral the Department
Justice. the extent Koskinen watching
tonight, are there potential criminal statutes
play?
MR. CAMUS:
Yes, there could be.
MR. GOWDY:
Yes,
Well, what could they be?
sir. not asking you prejudge it, but you cant
discriminate against someone based their
political ideology, can you?
MR. CAMUS:
No.
MR. GOWDY:
No.
Thats against the law,
and thank the Lord for it.
And you cant disclose confidential
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
taxpayer information, can you?
MR. CAMUS:
No, you cannot.
MR. GOWDY:
No, you cannot.
Nor can you mislead Congress, can you?
MR. CAMUS:
You cannot.
MR. GOWDY:
Could ask the Chairman
engage colloquy with me?
Mr. Chairman, listened and
friend, from Virginia, Mr. Connolly, and want
say that publicly.
district, but friend.
ask Mr. George respond letter that had
written asking for update something that
clearly Mr. George has jurisdiction over and
cant respond to. may hurt him his listened him
And would curious whether
not the Chairman would ask our friends the other
side the aisle they would willing write letter the Department Justice.
curious how Ms. Bosserman was chosen out all the
competent and there are lots and lots
competent attorneys the Department Justice
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING curious why she, max-out donor the
President, was picked head this criminal
investigation.
And, Mr. Chairman, interested
whether not theres even been grand jury
thats been convened.
interested whether not any grand jury
subpoenas have been issued, either for documents
for witnesses.
And, Mr. Chairman,
And interested whether not
there are any proffer agreements whether theyve
made any effort talk Ms. Lerner.
didnt have any success talking her.
hoping that they would have more success.
You and was would ask the Chairman
investigate, given this bipartisan spirit that
heard tonight, asking our colleagues the other
side the aisle join letter with us,
asking for update the real investigation, not
investigating the investigator, which what Ive
heard lot tonight
MR. CONNOLLY:
Would friend yield?
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
MR. GOWDY: but actually will
just second.
investigating the investigator, which Ive heard
lot tonight, Mr. George, but the real underlying
investigation into whether criminal conduct was
engaged in.
entertain that thought?
CHAIRMAN CHAFFETZ:
Not
Would the Chairman willing
And will, promise.
Yes. will follow -MR. GOWDY:
And thank the gentleman
from Utah.
trepidation, friend from Virginia.
And would yield, with great
MR. CONNOLLY: thank friend.
And
also friend.
Now, not fancy country lawyer from
South Carolina like friend, but would say its neat trick attack folks partisanship,
but try nullify our concerns about that very
subject here with respect Mr. George himself.
The objectivity, Mr. George, very much doubt.
And friend wants draw into
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
letter questioning the objectivity the partisan
activities lawyer the Department, were
happy entertain that, friend will join the concerns that were enumerated Mr.
Cartwright and myself 26-page complaint
MR. GOWDY:
Well,
MR. CONNOLLY: about the partisan
briefings and the violation the handbook.
And, the way, were going condemn people raise questions, insinuation, their
partisan affiliations, can that with Mr.
George, too, because has partisan history.
MR. GOWDY:
Reclaiming time, because out time, and know the Chairman
MR. CONNOLLY:
MR. GOWDY: thank good friend. going let make
one conclusory comment.
This the, think, the third time Mr.
George has appeared before this committee.
point the gentleman from Virginia simply
this:
gander.
Whats good for the goose good for the this man going have sit here
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
and listen accusations about his character and
his partiality, then think the least that can
done that can have few questions the
Department Justice about not prejudging
Ms. Bosserman.
find curious, out all the thousands
lawyers the Department Justice, why they
stumbled upon one who was max-out donor the
DNC. just
That was question.
And know out time, Ill yield have idea.
back the Chairman.
CHAIRMAN CHAFFETZ: now recognize the gentlewoman from
Michigan, Ms. Lawrence, for five minutes.
MS. LAWRENCE:
Thank the gentleman.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
And thank you, Ranking Member.
Some colleagues and many you
know that freshman Congresswoman, this
this conversation has preceded the previous
Congress.
that would like validate. have some questions timelines
Some colleagues continue claim
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
that there were ill intent surrounding Lois
Lerners computer crash, that she intentionally
crashed conceal her emails.
review the timeline.
And, Mr. George, Lois Lerners computer just want
crashed June 13, 2011; that correct?
MR. GEORGE:
That correct.
But for the technical questions, maam, going defer Mr. Camus, but Ill best
answer the questions that can.
MS. LAWRENCE:
And emails produced the
committee confirm that crashed June 13, 2011.
Then, June 14, 2011, Ms. Lerner sent email
several IRS employees stating that she could not
read her emails because her computer crashed day
earlier.
crashed yesterday. office; just saw this.
She wrote, and quote, computer BlackBerry doesnt work
Mr. George, according your audit
report June 29th, 2011, Ms. Lerner received
briefing explaining that the IRS employees
Cincinnati were searching for applications that
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
included the terms Tea Party, Patriots, and
9/12. have that date correct?
MR. GEORGE:
MS. LAWRENCE:
Yes, you do. before Ms. George [sic]
received information from you that there were
complaints, her computer had already crashed;
that correct?
MR. GEORGE:
You know, all candor,
Congresswoman, the timeline, relates
and this youre referring the audit and
not the investigation
MS. LAWRENCE:
MR. GEORGE:
Yes. will have supply
you answer for the record, thats
permissible.
MS. LAWRENCE:
Well, according your
report, Ms. Lerner learned about these
inappropriate search terms.
she wrote, she stated that she immediately
directed that the criteria changed.
MR. GEORGE:
She and quote
Ive just been informed that
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
the date that you cited accurate, Congresswoman.
MS. LAWRENCE:
following the timeline:
crashed; June 14th, there was email sent
saying, computer crashed yesterday; and then,
June 29, Ms. Lerner received briefing explaining
that employees IRS were using these terms.
And correct, those are the timelines far,
correct?
MR. GEORGE:
Okay. were
June 13th, the computer understanding, and again, getting this from staff, that most the
dates that you cited were accurate, with one
possible exception.
MR. CAMUS:
And believe the date that you
cite for the computer crash accurate.
MS. LAWRENCE:
Okay.
So, the time
Ms. Lerners computer crash, had TIGTA commenced
its audit IRS employees handling
applications for tax-exempt status?
MR. GEORGE:
MS. LAWRENCE:
No.
No?
No. hadnt begun. she couldnt have
known that you were coming investigate the
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
past actions the need for her she hadnt been
notified any need any investigation when the
audit began.
MR. GEORGE:
Now, dont know whether
she was interviewed, and cant, all candor,
determine what was her mind.
assumption, think, one could make. dont know anyone Tim, you would
But that
want add that?
MS. LAWRENCE: looking for, not
assumptions. the the facts that have
that her computer have date, and her
computer crashed June 13.
June that there was indication that there was
going audit based these terminologies
that were being used from the IRS.
MR. GEORGE:
MS. LAWRENCE:
MR. GEORGE:
And wasnt until
Theres question -Thats fact.
Theres question was
after
MS. LAWRENCE:
MR. GEORGE:
Okay. the crash that there was
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
any indication audit.
CHAIRMAN CHAFFETZ:
MS. LAWRENCE:
And our former Chairman
did not ask review this matter until 2012;
that correct?
MR. GEORGE:
CHAIRMAN CHAFFETZ:
gentlewoman.
Yes. thank the
Time has expired. well now recognize the gentleman from
Kentucky, Mr. Massie, for five minutes.
MR. MASSIE:
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
So, just over some the stuff
your opening statements.
744 backup tapes, Mr. Camus?
MR. CAMUS:
MR. MASSIE:
You said that you found
Thats correct.
And this after were
told these hearings Mr. Koskinen that these
tapes were unavailable.
When did you when did you first obtain
the tapes, those 744 backup tapes?
MR. CAMUS:
MR. MASSIE:
July 1st, 2014.
July 1st 2014.
What
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
find interesting that Mr. Koskinen was here
July 9th, 2014, and specifically which would eight days after you found those tapes.
those tapes were the possession IRS
employees?
MR. CAMUS:
They were the backup
tapes that were use.
MR. MASSIE:
Yes.
And
Right.
And those backup
tapes were kept the IRS Martinsville, West
Virginia?
MR. CAMUS:
Martinsburg, West Virginia.
MR. MASSIE: but eight days later, after you
found those tapes from IRS employees and you
said you drove there get them, asked Mr.
Koskinen, said, think you testified earlier
that the backup tapes are recycled every six
months.
They are kept for six months, and then the tapes
are put back into being recycled.
tapes are reused?
reused, yes.
Martinsburg.
They are kept and Mr.
Sorry.
Koskinen said, said, the
Mr. Koskinen said, They are
They are reused until they dont
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
work.
And questioning went further
with him, because dont think its typical
practice that these tapes are reused.
cheap reuse.
Theyre too you have any indication that they were
reusing those tapes?
MR. CAMUS:
MR. MASSIE: the tapes that you found,
had they been overwritten?
MR. CAMUS:
MR. MASSIE: believe they were
reusing the tapes.
Yes.
Yes.
And you have tapes that
cover which dates?
MR. CAMUS:
The tapes that recovered
had been overwritten.
and looking them ourselves, were able find backup far back November 2012.
backup contained emails that went all the way back 2001.
MR. MASSIE:
However, obtaining them
And that those backups had not
been overwritten?
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
MR. CAMUS:
That correct.
There was
information that tape that had not been
overwritten that allowed see email far
back 2001.
MR. MASSIE:
MR. CAMUS:
Now, distinct ahead.
MR. MASSIE:
And you found 32,774 unique
And you
emails those tapes, Lois Lerner emails?
MR. CAMUS:
Theyre unique Lois
Lerner.
the IRS ever had possession those and they, fact, turned them over Congress.
But what have yet determine
MR. MASSIE:
And you said you found nine
tapes that were either blank erased?
MR. CAMUS:
MR. MASSIE:
Thats correct.
And, earlier, you testified
you werent sure whether they were blank erased,
and was difficult impossible tell.
the FBI discover mean, seems me,
technically, that you could tell with some
diligence, maybe not first glance.
MR. CAMUS:
Can
Well, theres were
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
informed two parties; one, the FBI, and then the
other private expert data recovery, that
the tapes, when they examined them, were blank.
whether not they were erased and when they were
erased, they werent able determine that, based their forensic expertise.
them two separate places.
MR. MASSIE:
Thats why sent
All right. wanted ask you about. another thing
Some Lois Lerners
cohorts had hard drives that failed well during
that same period time after the investigation
started that the IRS was put notice that they
were going investigated. these tapes, could these tapes
contain emails that may have been lost the
failure those hard drives her cohorts?
MR. CAMUS:
Yes.
Were also looking into
those well.
MR. MASSIE:
And how many her
cohorts had hard drives that failed that you are
looking for these tapes?
MR. CAMUS: believe ended being
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
total five individuals.
MR. MASSIE:
And you think have you
found any those emails yet?
MR. CAMUS:
Were still the process
looking.
different places, their emails were managed out different email servers.
MR. MASSIE:
And those individuals were scattered you think you will
able retrieve information from the you said
you found 760; that correct, hard drives?
MR. CAMUS:
MR. MASSIE:
MR. CAMUS:
MR. MASSIE:
That were server-type
arrangement, rack?
That correct.
Yes. you think will
possible obtain information for those, based
your interaction with experts?
MR. CAMUS:
Its too early tell.
the drives are damaged beyond repair, will
almost impossible obtain meaningful email off
those.
MR. MASSIE:
All right.
Thank you.
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING yield back time.
CHAIRMAN CHAFFETZ:
gentleman. now recognize the gentlewoman from the thank the
Virgin Islands, Ms. Plaskett, for five minutes.
MS. PLASKETT:
Ranking Member.
Yes, thank you, Chairman,
And, gentlemen, good evening
you.
Mr. Chairman, Mr. Ranking Member, you
know, freshman well.
And difficult
for me, sitting here former prosecutor and
courtroom attorney, not jump and shout
objection lot the things that Ive been
hearing, which are, some instances, hearsay and
speculation, subjective conclusions that
colleagues are putting forward.
It, quite frankly, little
frightening for hear this without having
being able say anything, but learning, and will stick the how are doing things
here.
Mr. George, you made statement that
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
its important keep Congress informed.
find little questionable that you would keep
Congress informed facts that, testimony that
Mr. Camus has stated previously, changed from day day and that may negatively impact the integrity investigations facts change from day day,
one day the next, which, previous
investigator, understand that you must come
the full conclusion before you put something out
And
there which may, fact, change.
So, Mr. Camus, wanted ask you about
the process that still needs take place and that
changing the narrative investigations.
understand about the 32,000 emails which have
already been produced the committee.
long you anticipate, after youve finished your
analysis the emails that you have, how long will
that take, please?
MR. CAMUS:
And how think you may have stated.
Yes, maam. have not
produced any emails any committee yet until
were finished with the match.
MS. PLASKETT:
And then after the match
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING done?
MR. CAMUS:
Yes, the degree the
committee can receive them, some may need
redacted
MS. PLASKETT:
MR. CAMUS:
Correct. take out the 6103
protected information.
MS. PLASKETT:
MR. CAMUS:
Exactly. were hopeful that,
soon get our hands the software and are
able put the match together
MS. PLASKETT:
MR. CAMUS:
Um-hum. were probably week
two away.
And then the other factors that could
play into when were finished with our
investigation and are able issue report with
findings.
MS. PLASKETT:
Right.
How long does
usually take you draft report, the final
report?
MR. CAMUS:
Were prepared draft
final report when all the evidence in, probably
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
within week two.
MS. PLASKETT:
MR. CAMUS:
MS. PLASKETT: week two?
Yes, maam.
And some the
information that you may have given tonight,
facts were asked, may, fact, change?
MR. CAMUS:
MS. PLASKETT:
That correct.
information out the general public, which may, fact, change.
MR. CAMUS:
MS. PLASKETT:
And put that
That correct.
Thats little
troublesome.
And would ask the Chairman and the
Ranking Member that give them that time period,
which, although the scheme, the long-term scheme how long have been investigating, doesnt
seem that much more wait.
Thank you.
MR. CUMMINGS:
Would the lady yield?
MS. PLASKETT:
Yes. will yield the
Ranking Member.
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
MR. CUMMINGS:
Thank you.
You know, the question that needs
asked here and Ive listened all this but
this the question:
you during your investigation, did you ask the
question:
about the backup tapes? somebody and ask them that IRS?
nobodys asked that question yet.
Mr. Camus, did you, when
Why did you not have the information other words, did you
Because
And that seems
like logical question, since were talking about
criminal activity, and would think that that
would possibly the basis some it.
you?
MR. CAMUS:
Did
Without answer your
question, Mr. Cummings, without compromising the
investigation
MR. CUMMINGS:
MR. CAMUS:
Right. when started our search
for missing emails, were going leave stone
unturned and were not going take obvious
answer.
ourselves whether not email had been were going find and prove for
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
overwritten. approached the Internal Revenue
Service, and said, need all backup tapes that
would have been place between 2008 and 2011 for
Ms. Lerner.
tapes.
tapes that were play and had allegedly been
overwritten.
They provided the 400 the 744 believed that were working with the
After started analyzing those tapes
and started seeing email that went all the way
back 2001, believed that had found old
tapes that had been place since 2011 the
server.
did find through our investigative efforts
Only until two weeks ago were told and
MR. CUMMINGS:
going.
what you discovered?
did you say:
Well, thats where
But did you ask the question about that,
Like what happened? mean,
Whats this about?
MR. CAMUS:
Naturally, thats thats
probably the most important part that has left
that left for investigate this point, determine how and why all that happened and
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING there was any ill intent behind any that.
MR. CUMMINGS: youre still looking
into that?
MR. CAMUS:
MR. CUMMINGS:
CHAIRMAN CHAFFETZ:
Yes, sir.
All right.
Thanks. the gentlewoman
would yield. there any evidence that there was
attempt erase any the tapes?
MR. CAMUS:
They were this point,
dont want make any conclusions.
some tapes were erased, but dont have not the point investigation where can
explain that without jeopardizing ability
CHAIRMAN CHAFFETZ:
MR. CAMUS: believe that
Fair enough. figure out was done purpose.
CHAIRMAN CHAFFETZ:
And the
gentlewomans time expires here, one the reasons
that were doing this update, one the things
that causes great concern that back the
Super Bowl, you know, the Super Bowl, the President
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING interviewed Bill OReilly; said:
not even smidgen corruption here.
Theres
Nobody else has come conclusions.
still have outstanding questions from the
Department Justice, from the Inspector General,
from Congress.
conclusion.
world thinks can come that conclusion
without the facts.
Somehow the President came this
Fascinated hear some day how the
But there lot evidence, and
Congress plays role. are, too, also doing investigation.
have repeatedly repeatedly had the Commissioner the IRS come here and tell whole variety
stories, that based the testimony hear today,
that aint true.
investigate. cant simply sit back.
And
And thats why continue now recognize the gentleman from North
Carolina, Mr. Meadows, for five minutes.
MR. MEADOWS:
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And thank each you for being here. was talking gentleman from
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
100
Kentucky the other day, Mr. Phillips, and was
asking me, well, why cant just get all the
emails from everybody else that communicated with
Ms. Lois Lerner?
And think just few minutes ago, you
were saying there were five other people that were
central this investigation that weve lost their
emails. that correct, Mr. Camus?
MR. CAMUS: sorry, Mr. Meadows.
were looking into total possibly seven.
MR. MEADOWS: seven potential people
who, miraculously, their emails just disappeared.
And now youre looking for the backup tapes,
like you have found with Ms. Lerner?
MR. CAMUS:
Yes.
Were trying account
for every single email for every one the
individuals that would have been considered
custodian.
MR. MEADOWS:
Yeah. have you found
some those this point, youre still the
process?
MR. CAMUS:
Were still the process,
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
101
sir.
MR. MEADOWS:
All right. you find
very ironic that there would testimony here,
that very table where youre sitting today,
number times saying that there are backup
tapes, theyre gone?
looked, cant find them?
ironic, that you were able find them easily?
And talking about your personal opinion.
All the backup tapes, weve you find that
you find that ironic?
MR. CAMUS:
and dont assume
MR. MEADOWS:
Were trained investigators, you dont find anything
ironic.
MR. CAMUS:
anything, Mr. Meadows.
MR. MEADOWS:
Oh, didnt assume
All right.
Well, you you were sitting position
MR. CAMUS:
MR. MEADOWS:
Yes. or, more importantly,
you were the American people, would you believe
that Congress had been misled that there was
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
102
exhaustive research for these backup tapes?
you would that logical conclusion for
draw?
MR. CAMUS:
Would could certainly see how
somebody could draw that -MR. MEADOWS: you could see how the
American people would think that have been
misled?
So, today, nothing more comes out
this hearing, the hearing the title should be,
Congress was misled about backup tapes.
you agree with that?
title?
MR. CAMUS:
Would
Would that accurate investigator, would
have lay against and literally look
everything thats been said and put record and
then compare what know today and,
also, hopefully, complete investigation.
would probably know much better when finished.
MR. MEADOWS:
All right.
And well,
you would know much better when youre finished the conclusion that.
But, certainly,
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
103
today, weve been misled. you think new information has come out
from this hearing that didnt know about prior this hearing?
one, isnt it?
How about that?
MR. CAMUS:
MR. MEADOWS:
Thats easier
Yes. have new information
today that you uncovered that youve shared with
Members Congress.
Because colleagues over the other
side, you know, some them are new.
And back, must remember, havent always been
kind you, Mr. George, have
MR. GEORGE:
MR. MEADOWS:
Youve been fair.
Okay.
Well, thank you for
being gracious.
piercing questions why this done.
But, the same time, will ask
And like put slide,
because found this very ironic and just
hit when the gentlewoman across the aisle talked
about June the 29th.
June the 29th when Lois Lerner got briefed.
And this email from
And
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
104
didnt put those two together, but its dated that
same exact day.
thats sent two her colleagues.
says, one will ever believe that both your hard
drive and mine crashed within week each other.
Isnt that strange?
And its email from Lois Lerner
And she
Would you agree that thats strange?
MR. CAMUS:
MR. MEADOWS: would agree that would agree that its
strange.
stranger that those hard drives crashed ten days
after Lois Lerner was informed from Chairman Camp
that wanted know whats happening with the
targeting Tea Party groups. would think that would even
Wouldnt you find that strange?
coincidental? very
Lets put that way.
MR. CAMUS: would agree with you.
Very
coincidental.
MR. MEADOWS: have that, and
have all this, what you would say
investigator, circumstantial evidence, shouldnt
look little bit deeper for those emails?
And
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
105
shouldnt we, bipartisan fashion, extremely
happy with the fact that youre bringing that
you found evidence that wasnt previously available us?
MR. CAMUS:
MR. MEADOWS:
Yes. youve brought evidence
now, you have evidence now that may not have been
intentionally withheld from you, but certainly
wasnt volunteered you.
Because weve had all
kinds reports, Mr. George has already given
all kinds reports.
emails were missing.
that they were missing; had find those.
you had find the tapes.
Those
And they didnt even tell him
And
Wouldnt you think that would draw
And you know what?
some kind conclusion that had been misled? can see times expired, Ill
yield back the Chairman, and thank his
patience.
CHAIRMAN CHAFFETZ: thank the
gentleman. would now recognize the Ranking Member,
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
106
the gentleman from Maryland, Mr. Cummings, for five
minutes.
MR. CUMMINGS:
With all due respect
colleague, Mr. Meadows, the claims that has made
just now were given three Pinocchios The
Washington Post. want enter into the record
article dated June 24, 2014, The Letter That
quote, The Letter That Supposedly Led the Crash Lois Lerners Hard Drive.
CHAIRMAN CHAFFETZ:
Without objection,
ordered.
MR. CUMMINGS:
Thank you.
Let Mr. George and Mr. Camus,
really want get the bottom this, because,
you know, Mr. George, dont want you
mean, know some colleagues apparently filed
something against you, complaint, but theres
some deeper stuff going here, and just want
understand whats happening. May 2013 and this troubles
lot Mr. George, you issued your report the
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
107
treatment tax-exempt applicants.
Your report
was extremely controversial because Republicans
used argue that this was political
targeting against conservative groups.
But just few days before you issued
your report, the man sitting next you, your
deputy for investigations, Mr. Camus, sent
internal email your senior staff saying that
this was not political targeting. like put the email the
screen.
the very first line, says had conversation
with you and they pulled more than 5,000 emails
see there was any evidence political
motivation.
The email dated May 2nd, 2013.
And
Then says this, and quote, The
emails indicated the organizations needed
pulled because the IRS employees were not sure how process them, not because they wanted stall hinder the application.
that pulling these selected applications was
politically motivated, end quote.
There was indication
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
108
So, Mr. George, are you aware this
email, and did you know about the time?
MR. GEORGE: very much aware.
And
really want thank you tremendously for affording
myself, well Mr. Camus, the opportunity
put the right context why wrote that email.
MR. CUMMINGS:
All right.
Well, maybe
you let just continue.
get want him that, because
And going
troubling.
The email also says, and quote, The
email says:
there were clear unclear processing directions,
and the group wanted make sure that they had
guidance processing the applications, they
pulled them.
very important nuance, end quote.
The email traffic indicated that
And then says this, This
Now, going give you chance
explain it, but just want finish.
Mr. George, your deputy inspector general
for investigations called this point very
important point, and yet, its not included your
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
109
report just two weeks later.
MR. GEORGE:
And why was that?
Sir, again, would
think would really benefit the committee to;
one, get the context which that email was
drafted.
call not include the report seated
behind me, can give you complete answer
here.
And, ironically, the staffer who made the
MR. CUMMINGS:
MR. CAMUS:
MR. CUMMINGS:
All right. ahead.
Mr. Cummings, -And, the way, think
that this such important point, that since
the staffer isnt sworn in, need additional
information, sure that can swear him in.
just wanted answer.
But ahead.
interesting.
Because quite ahead.
MR. CAMUS:
While the audit staff was
looking into the audit and finishing their audit
work, they believed that somebody had said that
there was directive email causing the selection those applications for improper treatment.
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
They
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
110
didnt know who sent the email; they had just heard rumor that such email existed. they brought office, and they
asked would open investigation, which
point, declined because believed the
audit the process was the appropriate treatment
stream, and had reason believe that there
had been any criminal activity.
But agreed take quick look some the emails the individuals involved
pulling the applications test see found anything that jumped out that
would indicate there was, fact, criminal
activity.
individuals who were key the whole situation.
And used keyword search terms that were provided
from our audit staff. was very small sample, five
After pulled the emails and
searched them with those keyword search terms,
determined that, based all the traffic that
had seen from that limited sample, that there was
nothing that rose the level for our office
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
111
open criminal investigation that time.
And thats why the email was drafted.
was response that, there quote/unquote,
smoking-gun email out there that would indicate
that there was any type focus?
full investigation, and did look very minor
sample.
And that last sentence, that its was not
important nuance, that was share with the staff
that, based our quick peak the emails that
were looking at, again, using limited number
individuals and search terms, that there was
indication that time, looking that sample,
that there was any indication political
motivation that activity.
MR. CUMMINGS:
Mr. George, what
ahead.
MR. GEORGE:
Yes.
And like ask
Gregory Kutz and dont know what the protocol
is, Mr. Chairman, whether not
CHAIRMAN CHAFFETZ:
The protocol such
that will only hear from members who have been
PLANET DEPOS
888.433.3767 WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
COMMITTEE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
MEETING
112
sworn the committee.
And fairness all
members, were only going make available for
public comment those that all members this
committee have had opportunity question. will leave the answers Mr.
George and Mr. Camus.
time follow with the individual staffers,
would welcome the minority and majority both.
But need leave the testimony with both Mr.
George and Mr. Camus.
MR. CUMMINGS:
MR. GEORGE: was just going ask -MR. CUMMINGS:
Yeah.
MR. GEORGE:
MR. CUMMINGS:
the Chairman too. writing.
Make sure you get
Because are bipartisan here.
MR. GEORGE:
CHAIRMAN CHAFFETZ:
Give written
response detail.
Mr. Chairman, would like can get written response that? theres appropriate
Yes.
Right. the spirit
doing that, the time